What the lily?

[Zongo]

Guess when the term 'lily' is used in perfumery, people usually mean muguet, not lily, right? eg. 'lily propanol', Lilial, Lilytol, Lilyflore, etc. (or in odor profile descriptions, where I find 'lily' while muguet is meant.) Does this not-that-smart usage originate from english speakers who take 'lily of the valley' as the archetype of a lily, not knowing that this plant has not much in common with an actual lily?

 

[mnitabach]

Yes, it is obvious that in perfumery "lily" refers to "lily of the valley". Not sure why you consider this usage "not-that-smart" when it is unambiguous & universal in the perfumery context. Perfumers are perfumers, not ignorant botanists...

 

[parker25mv]

Guess when the term 'lily' is used in perfumery, people usually mean muguet, not lily, right?

Lily of the valley is something different from lily.
"Lily of the valley" is just a colloquial name for a different plant than lily is. They have very different smells, although a little bit similar in a similar sort of direction.

In casual use, in perfumery, if a reference is just made to "lily", it could be ambiguous which one exactly it refers to.

There are perfumes that actually smell like lily rather than muguet (lily of the valley).

 

[PeeWee678]

Guess when the term 'lily' is used in perfumery, people usually mean muguet, not lily, right?

Not necessarily. Formulas for "Lily accords" for example (there are ample of those) have nothing to do with LOTV (Muguet) but everything with Lily...

Personally I never refer to LOTV as "Lily". I always call it Muguet

 

[jsweet]

Guess when the term 'lily' is used in perfumery, people usually mean muguet, not lily, right? eg. 'lily propanol', Lilial, Lilytol, Lilyflore, etc. (or in odor profile descriptions, where I find 'lily' while muguet is meant.) Does this not-that-smart usage originate from english speakers who take 'lily of the valley' as the archetype of a lily, not knowing that this plant has not much in common with an actual lily?

Would Lily-of-the-valley Propanol or Lily-of-the-valleyal be smarter usages? In any event, I almost always see "lily propanol" referred to as Majantol. Lily of the valley itself does not contain any of the so-called muguet materials, like lilial, hydroxycitronellal, lyral, muguet carbinol, cyclamen aldehyde, majantol, florol, bourgeonal, hivernal neo, etc. etc. etc.

Beyond Muguet

We describe herewith the important milestones in the evolution of the lily of the valley odorant family, as well as recent advances towards the creation of a portfolio of sustainable and biodegradable captive ingredients.

www.perfumerflavorist.com

in contrast to other important members of the floral family such as rose, violet, jasmine or iris, which are all associated to a specific chemical family of molecules, the analysis of the lily of the valley flower did not reveal the existence of a signature ingredient. According to a study led at Dragoco (now Symrise)1 on the headspace of the flower, using GC-MS or GC-sniffing/GC-olfactometry techniques, the main identifiable constituents were benzyl alcohol (35 %), (Z)-3-hexen-1-ol (11 %), citronellol (9.6 %), geraniol (8.4 %) and (Z)-3-hexenyl acetate (7.8 %). Similar studies performed at Firmenicha also revealed trace amounts of phenylacetaldehyde oxime, which exhibits an interesting muguet-orange flower duality when in pure form. It was proposed that its combination with 2,3-laevo-dihydrofarnesol could reproduce the key note of the flower; however, the instability of this oxime prevents its use on industrial scale.

 

[parker25mv]

'Lily Propanol' is usually sold under the name "Majantol", hinting at muguet.
And Lilial's original generic name was "Lilyall", as in "Lily-All", an appropriate name since it does have a little bit of an actual lily nuance in its smell, beyond just muguet.

 

[jfrater]

Guess when the term 'lily' is used in perfumery, people usually mean muguet, not lily, right? eg. 'lily propanol', Lilial, Lilytol, Lilyflore, etc. (or in odor profile descriptions, where I find 'lily' while muguet is meant.) Does this not-that-smart usage originate from english speakers who take 'lily of the valley' as the archetype of a lily, not knowing that this plant has not much in common with an actual lily?

I never use lily to mean lily of the valley. I refer to it as lily of the valley or muguet. To me lily is this:



In terms of chemicals, they are often abbreviated names and/or often form part of bases for EITHER lily of the valley OR actual lily (as pictured).

 

[psilotum]

I am a botanist. Jamie is correct. The plants should not be confused, and NO ONE on this forum should say lily when they mean muguet. Lily is lily - it is not common, but it is standalone. How companies name their products is their business.

 

[Zongo]

Yes, it is obvious that in perfumery "lily" refers to "lily of the valley". Not sure why you consider this usage "not-that-smart" when it is unambiguous & universal in the perfumery context. Perfumers are perfumers, not ignorant botanists...

Tell me a thing that isn't unambiguous in context. How ambiguous it actually is shows this quote by Harri about p-cresol I've just read: "Important for narcissus and lily: animal, phenolic. Also seen in oud." So is it obvious that 'lily' refers to muguet? Don't think so.

​

 

[jfrater]

Tell me a thing that isn't unambiguous in context. How ambiguous it actually is shows this quote by Harri about p-cresol I've just read: "Important for narcissus and lily: animal, phenolic. Also seen in oud." So is it obvious that 'lily' refers to muguet? Don't think so.

​

I don't know where the quote is from or which "Harri" you refer to, but p-cresol has a very obvious application in lily type bases (ACTUAL lily as I posted the image of above) and not really much practical use in muguet. You could of course use it as a nuancer for a narcissus type accent (Jasmin Blanc for example gets its narcissus character from para cresol) and para cresyl caprylate is nice in the dry down of a muguet base, but in general, para cresol is not thought of as a muguet chemical.

 

[mnitabach]

Tell me a thing that isn't unambiguous in context. How ambiguous it actually is shows this quote by Harri about p-cresol I've just read: "Important for narcissus and lily: animal, phenolic. Also seen in oud." So is it obvious that 'lily' refers to muguet? Don't think so.

​

No one who possesses anything more than the most superficial understanding is confused by any of this. If you want to feel superior to perfumers who colloquially use lily to mean muguet/lotv because you are botanically "right" and they are "wrong", knock yourself out. No one else cares.

 

[Sniffita]

LOTV : how ugly that acronym is. It sounds like the name of a virus.....

 

[ourmess]

I am a botanist. Jamie is correct. The plants should not be confused, and NO ONE on this forum should say lily when they mean muguet.

Perfumery is not botany. ;p It is very common for perfumers to use "lily" and "muguet" interchangeably. Likewise, botanists would properly call tomatoes "berries", but if a chef asks for berries and you give them tomatoes, they're going to get pissed that you gave them "vegetables", because cooking is not botany.

Context matters. *shrug*

 

[Kacper Kafel]

Lily and muguet is totally different termin for me.
Muguet/lily of the valley is dominant by rose type l-citronellol, with green fruity notes, cinnamic alcohol and indole.
The term is complicated because lily, on the other hand, has a heterogeneous fragrance profile and 2 basic patterns can be distinguished - white lily and oriental lily.
The former smells in the climate of tuberose and orange blossom ( something in between, sweet indolic white flower aroma with subtle lactonic celery like undertone) these oriental varietes are very animalic resemble ylang-ylang but are a bit more vanillic and less soapy- they have skatole and para-cresol in their spectrum, the casablanca variety smells really like excrement+boar.

 

[Zenwannabee]

I myself am a huge lily of the valley fan. And two of my favorites in men’s perfumery are:

 

[mnitabach]

I myself am a huge lily of the valley fan. And two of my favorites in men’s perfumery are:

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I have to say, I've never tried to compose a fragrance that centers muguet, only used it as a supporting effect.

 

[Culpa Ire]

Mayol was so into it he used to wear a bunch in his boutonniere, apparently.

 

[Culpa Ire]

Voilà...!

 

[David Ruskin]

Muguet des Bois (Lily of the Valley) was Christian Dior's favourite, and lucky, flower. When he died his coffin was covered in muguet. Diorissimo was created because of this. Not as good as it once was, but what is?

In France May 1st is called "Muguet day", and it is traditional to wear a sprig of the flower on that day.

I find the idea of an entire thread devoted to bickering over semantics fascinating, and, at the same time, bloody annoying.

There are two types of flower called "Lily". One is Lily of the Valley ( of which there are several types), and the other isn't (of which there are even more types). Lily of the Valley does not smell like any of the other flowers called Lily. OK?

Now, shut up, and grow up.

 

[jfrater]

Lily and muguet is totally different termin for me.
Muguet/lily of the valley is dominant by rose type l-citronellol, with green fruity notes, cinnamic alcohol and indole.
The term is complicated because lily, on the other hand, has a heterogeneous fragrance profile and 2 basic patterns can be distinguished - white lily and oriental lily.
The former smells in the climate of tuberose and orange blossom ( something in between, sweet indolic white flower aroma with subtle lactonic celery like undertone) these oriental varietes are very animalic resemble ylang-ylang but are a bit more vanillic and less soapy- they have skatole and para-cresol in their spectrum, the casablanca variety smells really like excrement+boar.

Kacper, your descriptions are always so incredibly colourful. Never stop