Vintage Coty Perfumes, Reconsidered

[Lellabelle]

Stella, you've got me absolutely itching to try Imprévu !

This is just the kind of thread that makes Basenotes such a valuable reference. Being almost totally ignorant about Coty, I want you all to know how much I appreciate all the historical and personal information you're sharing here.

Enjoying this thread enormously. A huge +1 to Cook.bot’s sentiments, above. My knowledge of vintage Coty is limited, beyond the history, and even there I’m learning. Thanks, all, for sharing

 

[grayspoole]

Coty Muguet de Bois

I’ve had masses of lily of the valley plants in my garden for years, and I always enjoy lily of the valley notes in perfumes. The scent of the living flower is delicate and somewhat elusive: you have to catch them just after they bloom. LOTV is a squeaky clean white flower smell: no indoles, slightly sharp and mineralic and green. In perfumery, LOTV is always synthetic, recreated with ingredients that are the backbone of a vast number of perfume compositions. I tend to enjoy LOTV most as a balancing or accent note in complex perfume compositions. My favorite LOTV-forward perfume is Diorisssimo.

And classic LOTV ingredients are all banned. If you’re interested in LOTV, you really should read Mat Yuodv’s excellent overview (if you haven’t already done so):

https://www.fragrantica.com/news/May-Greetings-New-Lily-Of-The-Valley-Aromachemicals-9014.html

As a chemist, Yudov is optimistic that our friends at IFF and Givaudan et. al. will find great replacements for hydroxycitronellal, lyral, et. al.. and suggests that we may see a new wave of LOTV perfumes. I’ll try to keep an open mind. Has anyone smelled a great new LOTV lately?

Getting back to Coty, its LOTV perfume was Muguet de Bois. Most sources say it was composed by Henri Robert in 1936/1941, but Cleopatra’s Boudoir states that she has seen references to a Muguet des Bois by Coty “in a 1919 price list in the Druggist's Circular and again in 1925 and 1934” so she credits both Coty and Robert for the composition. Coty’s Muguet was famously cited by Roudnitska as the inspiration for Diorissimo, although he went on to say it was unwearable for reasons unexplained.

It’s hard to find a really old bottle of Coty’s Muguet in good condition. I had high hopes for this PDT, which came with its plastic stopper intact and I think dates to the 1960’s:



There’s a satisfyingly sharp and green LOTV opening, but sadly this PDT peters out quickly and wears like a cologne. Coty’s Muguet was popular and sold for a long period of time. If you’ve tried Coty’s Muguet, what did you think of it? I won’t pass up a truly good vintage Coty Muguet bottle, especially the parfum formulation, if I should ever find one, but vintage Diorissimo is probably all the LOTV I need.

Here’s an excellent post on Coty’s Muguet by a LOTV-loving blogger:

https://scentsandsensibilities.co/2016/05/19/may-muguet-marathon-coty-muguet-des-bois/

 

[Bigsly]

Apparently, some are now being sold by Prism Parfums and made in England (Vanilla Fields, Lutece, Moon Drops, etc.). Anyone know more about this development?

 

[cacio]

I have tried some random (but not extremely old) version of muguet de bois edt, and I agree with you. nice, but nowhere near Diorissimo. Diorissimo has something more. More vivid yet more complex.

No good muguet beyond that I can think of. I enjoyed Dior Lucky (one of the new exclusives), but again, nothing close to Diorissimo. And I've always thought of Malle Eau de Magnolia as sister of Diorissimo-as I detect several common facets between magnolia and lily of the valley.

(Btw, a couple of weeks ago I smelled muguets in my mothers garden. Lovely smell, but even on the flower, quite subdued... no wonder you cannot get anything out of the flower)

cacio

 

[grayspoole]

Apparently, some are now being sold by Prism Parfums and made in England (Vanilla Fields, Lutece, Moon Drops, etc.). Anyone know more about this development?

The only Coty perfumes I can see in this company's line are Masumi and Vanilla Fields. The reviews for all of the Prism reissues are decidedly mixed. Caveat emptor, I would think.

 

[grayspoole]

No good muguet beyond that I can think of. I enjoyed Dior Lucky (one of the new exclusives), but again, nothing close to Diorissimo. And I've always thought of Malle Eau de Magnolia as sister of Diorissimo-as I detect several common facets between magnolia and lily of the valley.

(Btw, a couple of weeks ago I smelled muguets in my mothers garden.

So glad you had a chance to smell the muguet this spring, Cacio. I always enjoy the muguet in vintage VCA First and Gucci Envy parfum, but these precede the limitations on LOTV ingredients. I am interested in investigating the connection you perceive between magnolia and LOTV notes. I would also like to test Oriza Legrand's Muguet Fleuri, VCA Muguet Blanc (2009), and Tauer's Carillon pour un ange. And finally I wish Guerlain would issue a one good muguet instead of overpriced, limited edition annual muguet perfumes.

 

[cacio]

To my nose there is a connection. Both have a floral citrusy aspect. Magnolia is more lemony, though. But in the case of Eau de Magnolia I think it was also the perfume itself. Recent muguets usually feel more like they belong to a floor cleaner. Diorissimo, among others, had a certain depth below the prim clean top (civet? who knows), and so does Eau de Magnolia.

cacio

 

[StellaDiverFlynn]

So glad you had a chance to smell the muguet this spring, Cacio. I always enjoy the muguet in vintage VCA First and Gucci Envy parfum, but these precede the limitations on LOTV ingredients. I am interested in investigating the connection you perceive between magnolia and LOTV notes. I would also like to test Oriza Legrand's Muguet Fleuri, VCA Muguet Blanc (2009), and Tauer's Carillon pour un ange. And finally I wish Guerlain would issue a one good muguet instead of overpriced, limited edition annual muguet perfumes.

I quite enjoy Oriza's Muguet Fleuri. It's a relatively realistic and by the numbers lily of the valley with sharp sappy green facet. Another similar one I can think of is Annick Goutal Le Muguet, which replicates the slightly warm but not yet animalic, and slightly "chalky" sweet floralcy of lily of the valley quite well, but not as green as Muguet Fleuri. DelRae Debut and Dame Lily of the Valley soliflore oil are also in the same vein in my opinion, with the former being more virginal and the later being more "chalky". I personally find Muguet Fleuri the most satisfying lily of the valley for its realism, and Diorissimo has too much jasmine facets for me to consider it as solely focusing on lily of the valley (kind of like Samsara is more like a ylang/jasmine-sandalwood than sandalwood to me), but if one prioritizes the complexity, Diorissimo is indeed unrivalled in my opinion.

As for VCA Muguet Blanc, it's more like a sweet orange blossom + a bit green neroli to me. Neither do Tauer Carillon Pour Un Ange nor Hermès Muguet Porcelaine smell really like lily of the valley to me, but these two are very interesting in their own right. Carillon is curiously sharp, and almost shrill at times with its bitter green moss, which is juxtaposed with a green, aqueous (not aquatic) plant sap and watermelon peel-like, crystalline green sweetness, kind of like some aspects of lily of the valley got deformed by a certain optic illusion. Muguet Porcelaine also has a melon-like sweetness (not really aquatic), but with a synthetic civet-like skanky warmness making ripples around the edge, which is a quite unexpected development in Hermessence line.

Oh speaking of melon, Penhligon's Lily of the Valley also reminds me of melon. Why do some lily of the valley perfumes have this nuance? Does anyone have similar association with some LOTV perfumes?

 

[grayspoole]

Dear StellaDiverFlynn-

Thanks for your notes on recent muguets! When I get through my self-imposed investigation of vintage Cotys, I'll start checking some of these out.

I quite enjoy Oriza's Muguet Fleuri. It's a relatively realistic and by the numbers lily of the valley with sharp sappy green facet.

This does sound good! Oriza is an engaging brand, and I appreciate their efforts to produce modern fragrances with an old school vibe.

Another similar one I can think of is Annick Goutal Le Muguet, which replicates the slightly warm but not yet animalic, and slightly "chalky" sweet floralcy of lily of the valley quite well, but not as green as Muguet Fleuri. DelRae Debut and Dame Lily of the Valley soliflore oil are also in the same vein in my opinion, with the former being more virginal and the later being more "chalky".

This idea of "chalkiness" interests me--is it a mineral-rich smell or a dry astringent texture for you? I usually don't mind "chalkiness" and I think of galbanum as a chalky greeness.

Diorissimo has too much jasmine facets for me to consider it as solely focusing on lily of the valley...but if one prioritizes the complexity, Diorissimo is indeed unrivalled in my opinion.

I think you are right about the jasmine in Diorissimo. I'll have to smell my different versions (vintage parfum, vintage EDT, current 2014 extrait) to see if there is a difference in the jasmine component. It is probably the jasmine that leads some to describe vintage Diorissimo as "animalic" which I have never really understood.

Tauer Carillon Pour Un Ange [does not] smell really like lily of the valley to me...is curiously sharp, and almost shrill at times with its bitter green moss, which is juxtaposed with a green, aqueous (not aquatic) plant sap and watermelon peel-like, crystalline green sweetness, kind of like some aspects of lily of the valley got deformed by a certain optic illusion.

Bitter green moss is enticing, I have stayed my hand in ordering Carillon since some reviews suggest it dries down to WAC, but your description sounds appealing. Hope it's not too sweet. I do like how Tauer revisits and rethinks perfumery florals, such as Gardenia Sotto La Luna, although I haven't found his rose perfumes to be naturally rose-y enough for me, too spicy and woody.

Oh speaking of melon, Penhligon's Lily of the Valley also reminds me of melon. Why do some lily of the valley perfumes have this nuance? Does anyone have similar association with some LOTV perfumes?

I usually find melon and cucumber notes cloying, so this is NG. I assume the idea is to update, soften, and sweeten the sharpness and greeness of LOTV in these compositions with the usual calone et. al...

 

[grayspoole]

Shall we discuss Coty Chypre (1917)?

There have been a few topics devoted to it in the past...

http://www.basenotes.net/threads/451031-Chypre-de-Coty
http://www.basenotes.net/threads/210533-Coty-Chypre
http://www.basenotes.net/threads/412671-Coty-Chypre-drydown-question

I have been waiting and waiting to get a good bottle of the original version, after testing the 1980's reissue and finding it pretty uninspiring. I now have the original EDT, which arrived in excellent condition, with its internal stopper intact. Preliminary thoughts...it's great. Since the bottle arrived, I've been too busy to test it carefully, but one morning, I looked at my dresser and had this little epiphany...



I hadn't noticed Faberge's close imitation of the Coty Chypre packaging until that moment. And, duh!, vintage Faberge Aphrodisia (1938) is another good old school chypre that should get more attention than it does. In our Rogue Perfumery topic, in our discussions of Manny's neo chypre Chypre Siam, I mentioned that Millot's Crepe de Chine (1925) is a close descendant of Coty's Chypre, and that comparison still holds. Guerlain's original Sous Le Vent (1933) probably was equally great as well, but I think the recent reissue feels more like a cologne than a classic chypre with full density and richness.

What distinguishes all of these chypres for me is the fine balance among the green, hesperidic, bitter, and resinous components. The chypre accord holds together seamlessly.

Mitsouko is such a different kind of chypre that I am almost unable to call it a "chypre" or read it as a clear development from Coty's Chypre. (And, lordy, I hate using the term "fruity chypre" to describe the somber complexity of Mitsouko.) If Guerlain WAS inspired by Coty's Chypre in creating Mitsouko, I would say that he completely displaced his source in an act of creative misinterpretation/misprision (cf. Bloom's Anxiety of Influence).

 

[StellaDiverFlynn]

This does sound good! Oriza is an engaging brand, and I appreciate their efforts to produce modern fragrances with an old school vibe.

This idea of "chalkiness" interests me--is it a mineral-rich smell or a dry astringent texture for you? I usually don't mind "chalkiness" and I think of galbanum as a chalky greeness.

I think you are right about the jasmine in Diorissimo. I'll have to smell my different versions (vintage parfum, vintage EDT, current 2014 extrait) to see if there is a difference in the jasmine component. It is probably the jasmine that leads some to describe vintage Diorissimo as "animalic" which I have never really understood.

Bitter green moss is enticing, I have stayed my hand in ordering Carillon since some reviews suggest it dries down to WAC, but your description sounds appealing. Hope it's not too sweet. I do like how Tauer revisits and rethinks perfumery florals, such as Gardenia Sotto La Luna, although I haven't found his rose perfumes to be naturally rose-y enough for me, too spicy and woody.

I usually find melon and cucumber notes cloying, so this is NG. I assume the idea is to update, soften, and sweeten the sharpness and greeness of LOTV in these compositions with the usual calone et. al...

Thank you grayspoole for taking time with the reply! Lily of the valley in perfumery is such an interesting topic! I'll try to be more concise this time so as not to stray the thread too much from discussing Coty perfumes.

"Modern perfumes with an old school vibe", that's what I find fascinating about Oriza too! Qutie a few revived historic brands only capitalised on the image, and their perfumes don't really distinguish themselves from other modern niche perfumes. But with Oriza, even though one can still notice the modern materials, the composition succeeds or at least tries to convey an old school vibe, and they're pretty consistent between different releases too, which strengthens their unique identity.

The "chalkiness" I refer to, is not really mineral nor astringently dry. It's more like a certain opaqueness, slightly powdery but not in the "cosmetic powder puff" kind of way, more like condensed powder such as the texture of compact powder or a piece of chalk, just short of being waxy or creamy, It's an association that I encounter most often in some non-oily white floral such as Jovan Island Gardenia or occasionally in Fracas and Diorissimo for example.

I don't find Diorissimo particularly animalic, either (modern or vintage). If there's indeed civet or similar materials in it, I must have combined it with other floral elements to form the "indolic jasmine" association in my head.

I agree that the perspectives in some of Tauer's perfumes are very interesting. I don't get much WAC in Carillon or other Tauer perfumes except for his latest Les Années 25, but he does have a certain affinity to Ambroxan or adjacent materials and uses them in quite a few of his works. I'm not particularly bothered by it, partly because I don't despise Ambroxan as much as WAC, partly because he usually incorporates it fairly organically. But I can definitely see how some people can be bothered by it, especially if they're sensitive to

As for the melon, I'm not entirely confident it's Calone, which smells aquatic but also kind of "fishy" to my nose. Besides some lily of the valley perfumes, I also have melon associations with some jasmine/Hedione perfumes such as a few Dior perfumes by Roudnitska and Pierre Guillaume Drama Nuui, or some rose perfumes such as The Different Company Rose Poivrée and Aromatics Elxir. It's very possible that it's just an accidental asssociation that I have with ceratin floral materials, as the melon part in these perfumes are all slightly or greatly different from each other with their own facets and nuances.

 

[StellaDiverFlynn]

Shall we discuss Coty Chypre (1917)?

There have been a few topics devoted to it in the past...

http://www.basenotes.net/threads/451031-Chypre-de-Coty
http://www.basenotes.net/threads/210533-Coty-Chypre
http://www.basenotes.net/threads/412671-Coty-Chypre-drydown-question

I have been waiting and waiting to get a good bottle of the original version, after testing the 1980's reissue and finding it pretty uninspiring. I now have the original EDT, which arrived in excellent condition, with its internal stopper intact. Preliminary thoughts...it's great. Since the bottle arrived, I've been too busy to test it carefully, but one morning, I looked at my dresser and had this little epiphany...

View attachment 102986 View attachment 102987

I hadn't noticed Faberge's close imitation of the Coty Chypre packaging until that moment. And, duh!, vintage Faberge Aphrodisia (1938) is another good old school chypre that should get more attention than it does. In our Rogue Perfumery topic, in our discussions of Manny's neo chypre Chypre Siam, I mentioned that Millot's Crepe de Chine (1925) is a close descendant of Coty's Chypre, and that comparison still holds. Guerlain's original Sous Le Vent (1933) probably was equally great as well, but I think the recent reissue feels more like a cologne than a classic chypre with full density and richness.

What distinguishes all of these chypres for me is the fine balance among the green, hesperidic, bitter, and resinous components. The chypre accord holds together seamlessly.

Mitsouko is such a different kind of chypre that I am almost unable to call it a "chypre" or read it as a clear development from Coty's Chypre. (And, lordy, I hate using the term "fruity chypre" to describe the somber complexity of Mitsouko.) If Guerlain WAS inspired by Coty's Chypre in creating Mitsouko, I would say that he completely displaced his source in an act of creative misinterpretation/misprision (cf. Bloom's Anxiety of Influence).

Thank you for this interesting read! Some of the information in the linked threads are enlightening. I very much agree that Crêpe de Chine is also a close descendant. Interestingly, the addition of honeyed animalic floral elements in Crêpe de Chine evokes a very different mood from Coty Chypre to me, much more sensuous while Coty is more nature-orienting. Mitsouko in contrary, makes its comparison to Coty Chypre instantly jump out in my head, despite its significant characteristics of dried peach and subtle spices.

 

[cacio]

I agree that Crepe de Chine is closely related to Chypre. But to my nose not more than Mitsouko. Crepe de Chine to my nose is quite different in the top, where crepe de chine is aldehydic and floral. It's in the base that the chypre structure becomes noticeable. Mitsouko has the underlying structure, but covered in the guerlain haze. Plus, the peach-skin material can be very strong to some-there are versions of modern Mitsouko where I think there's too much of it.

As for Diorissimo, I wouldn't certainly say it's animalic. It's no Joy. But I meant animalic relative to current muguet iteration, where it feels that the thing belongs to a floor cleaner. Diorissimo is still prim, but it has a touch of something, perhaps jasmine and civet, that gives it warmth.

cacio

 

[grayspoole]

I very much agree that Crêpe de Chine is also a close descendant. Interestingly, the addition of honeyed animalic floral elements in Crêpe de Chine evokes a very different mood from Coty Chypre to me, much more sensuous while Coty is more nature-orienting. Mitsouko in contrary, makes its comparison to Coty Chypre instantly jump out in my head, despite its significant characteristics of dried peach and subtle spices.

I agree that Crepe de Chine is closely related to Chypre. But to my nose not more than Mitsouko. Crepe de Chine to my nose is quite different in the top, where crepe de chine is aldehydic and floral. It's in the base that the chypre structure becomes noticeable. Mitsouko has the underlying structure, but covered in the guerlain haze. Plus, the peach-skin material can be very strong to some-there are versions of modern Mitsouko where I think there's too much of it.

Hello StellaDiverFlynn and Cacio-

Thanks so much for joining in, I wish we could sit together with our bottles and sniff and discuss. Instead, we must try to explain our scent perceptions in...WORDS.

I agree with you both that Crepe de Chine layers more intense, even luscious, florals over the chypre framework of bergamot, oakmoss, and labdanum. I think the effect is very beautiful, and if I were forced to choose, for some reason, I would take Crepe de Chine over Coty Chypre.

Re: Mitsouko. Here, I am diverging from your opinions, since I am trying to argue (perhaps just to be controversial) that Mitsouko feels so different from Coty Chypre that I don't see much point (or receive much enlightenment) in making the comparison. The addition of Persicol/γ-Undecalactone/aldehyde C 14 to the chypre structure is the big game changer, but I would also say that Mitsouko's aromatic sweet spices, orris, vanilla, and vivid incense/woods (vetiver, patchouli, and ??) are just as important. To me, all of these amount to feels much more than a Guerlain "haze" or veil suffused over the austere chypre structure: I think these ingredients make Mitsouko into its own thing, and I wish we had a good name for it...but perhaps it's just Mitsouko.

 

[grayspoole]

Mitsouko.

Enough said, right? Are there any other classic chypres that you enjoy?

 

[Couronne de Violette]

"A juicy, lime-y, mouthwatering bergamot note almost explodes from my ancient Emeraude."

Oy, like stumbling upon a centuries-old bottle of port from a Spanish galleon and uncorking it in its original beauty. I'm not quite as jealous of this as the almost-full bottle of Tabac Blond that was posted recently, but close! The description of Shalimar is so apt; the first time I bought the vintage EDC, I was convinced that the petroleum note was evidence of its ruin, but then I began to CRAVE it.

I have a teensy mini of L'Aimant (not sure which version, but light gold juice) and it has been different the 2 times I've worn it. The first try was intense, indolic jasmine (almost honeysuckle) with a subtle vein of unmistakable civet funk, then a drydown that is almost identical to vintage Samsara - real, radiant sandalwood. Very discrete notes and development. The second time, the floral and wood notes were blended, but I felt like I was an inch away from the civet's hindquarters!

I have a larger bottle of parfum, and it is more mellow, vanillic in the most natural way, like woody caramel. It is also the color of whiskey. Maybe not as interesting as the interplay in Shalimar, but so delicious, radiant, and comforting. I can see why people compare it to No. 5 - there is a warmth and radiance that is very feminine, especially in the floral notes, but it really isn't that similar.

I wish I could better express the elements of fragrance. Maybe one day.

 

[grayspoole]

I have a teensy mini of L'Aimant (not sure which version, but light gold juice) and it has been different the 2 times I've worn it. The first try was intense, indolic jasmine (almost honeysuckle) with a subtle vein of unmistakable civet funk, then a drydown that is almost identical to vintage Samsara - real, radiant sandalwood. Very discrete notes and development. The second time, the floral and wood notes were blended, but I felt like I was an inch away from the civet's hindquarters!

I have a larger bottle of parfum, and it is more mellow, vanillic in the most natural way, like woody caramel. It is also the color of whiskey. Maybe not as interesting as the interplay in Shalimar, but so delicious, radiant, and comforting. I can see why people compare it to No. 5 - there is a warmth and radiance that is very feminine, especially in the floral notes, but it really isn't that similar.

I wish I could better express the elements of fragrance. Maybe one day.

I think you are expressing the beauty of L'Aimant perfectly right now...Thanks for adding your perceptions of this vintage Coty. Just going to leave this here...(borrowed photo, not mine)



Honestly, my mind reels at the thought of wearing L'Aimant-scented lipstick, rouge, powder AND perfume on a given day, but it might be fun to try. Perhaps the lipstick wasn't scented?

 

[Couronne de Violette]

I think you are expressing the beauty of L'Aimant perfectly right now...Thanks for adding your perceptions of this vintage Coty. Just going to leave this here...(borrowed photo, not mine)

View attachment 105887

Honestly, my mind reels at the thought of wearing L'Aimant-scented lipstick, rouge, powder AND perfume on a given day, but it might be fun to try. Perhaps the lipstick wasn't scented?

What? No matching hat and gloves? Love the little case. Like I said, the old stuff's the best!

 

[N.CAL Fragrance Reviewer]

I think you are expressing the beauty of L'Aimant perfectly right now...Thanks for adding your perceptions of this vintage Coty. Just going to leave this here...(borrowed photo, not mine)

View attachment 105887

Honestly, my mind reels at the thought of wearing L'Aimant-scented lipstick, rouge, powder AND perfume on a given day, but it might be fun to try. Perhaps the lipstick wasn't scented?

I wonder if this was a gift set of some kind or special presentation offered by Coty at one point.

 

[grayspoole]

I wonder if this was a gift set of some kind or special presentation offered by Coty at one point.

Coty produced many gift sets over the years. I haven't found an ad with that specific box but here's a similar Emeraude set.



And a different style of set for Chypre.



And here's a 1940 ad showing the sets for L'Aimant, Emeraude, L'Origan, and Paris.



It would be very easy to get carried away into collecting these...(but not today Satan, not today)