The White Musk thread

[Opiate]

One of the most heavily used ingredients in modern perfumery, yet we know almost nothing about them.

No one seems to know their names, how many there are, how they are made, what they’re derived from, which is which, what they smell most similar to, etc.
To further add to their mysteriousness, many of us are anosmic to them.

Let‘s load up in the Mystery Machine and try to solve this case!

Over the years I’ve been able to identify at least 3 different white musks.
Here’s what I know for certain:

White Musk #1: The most heavily used white musk in men’s fragrances today (and my least favorite).
This one is commonly found in Bleu De Chanel, Sauvage, Dior Homme Sport, and many others. It‘s smell is probably most easily isolated & recognized in Chanel Les Exclusif Eau De Cologne and Dior Prive Cologne Royal.
My non-scientific observation, based on over a decade of Basenotes discussions: This is the one most people seem to be anosmic to.
(I can identify this one immediately due to having an allergic reaction to it: when I smell a fragrance that contains it, the tip of my tongue goes numb).

White Musk #2: I’m going to call this one the dryer sheet musk.
This one is more on the softer, cuddly, sensual side and is found in Penhaligon’s Castile and Frederic Malle’s Cologne Indeleibile (Malle calls it “grey musk”).

White Musk #3: Let’s call this one the Aventus musk, because so many people talk about the musk in Aventus. I can’t list any other fragrances that use it because I’m completely anosmic to this one. I have no idea what it smells like or what other fragrances use it.
But we know it exists and is different from the other 2.

I’m sure there’s more of them but that’s all I have on White Musk so far.
Hopefully it’s enough to get the ball rolling and we can begin to piece together what we know and crack this code!
I’m looking forward to everyone’s thoughts & input! Every data point matters, even if it’s as simple as “I can’t smell them”.

*And if there’s any perfumers or chemists in here, your help would be greatly appreciated! Something as simple as the individual names, so we can can stop using the generic blanket term “musk”, would be huge for the community!

 

[Opiate]

Another musk worth mentioning- I don’t think it’s a “white” musk, but just in case it is, or to differentiate it from the others, I’ll go ahead and register it here:

Nor sure what to call it, but it’s the musk used in: Keihl’s Original Musk, Musc Ravageur & Feminite du Bois (amongst others).

 

[imm0rtelle]

Might be helpful to you: https://basenotes.com/threads/favorite-musk-centered-scents-for-men.506540/post-5508670

 

[Culpa Ire]

White musk is a marketing term; it could literally mean any one or combination of musks. I suppose it might used to convey a clean musk profile as opposed to animalic, but it’s not a specific aroma chemical.

 

[David Ruskin]

Sorry to tell you all but the above posts are meaningless. There is no such thing as "White Musk". As has been stated it is simply a marketing term. The various musk effects found in fragrances are the results of mixtures of chemicals which have a musk like odour. On the DIY Forum there have been several detailed explanations and descriptions of the types of musk chemicals, and how they are divided into specific chemical groups.

The best explanation on the DIY Forum was given by Paul Kiler, if you are interested take a look although it is fairly chemistry heavy.

 

[hednic]

White musk is a marketing term

That was my understanding also.

 

[FiveoaksBouquet]

White musk may be a marketing term but it is used in so many perfume descriptions that it must represent some smells. This is a useful topic to me because I am one of those anosmic to certain musks and sometimes feel I have no clue if a scent I am wearing smells different to others. It may actually be smelling completely different from how I perceive it.

Associating certain musks with certain scents adds a little knowledge to how my perfumes may be coming across. I don’t care much in general for those musk notes I can smell. Maybe this partial anosmia is an advantage. 😊

P.S. The one I really dislike is laundry musk and thank goodness I can smell it because I can then avoid smelling like it!

 

[Opiate]

Sorry to tell you all but the above posts are meaningless. There is no such thing as "White Musk". As has been stated it is simply a marketing term. The various musk effects found in fragrances are the results of mixtures of chemicals which have a musk like odour. On the DIY Forum there have been several detailed explanations and descriptions of the types of musk chemicals, and how they are divided into specific chemical groups.

The best explanation on the DIY Forum was given by Paul Kiler, if you are interested take a look although it is fairly chemistry heavy.

So what’s the name of the musk (or musk accord, or “non-white” musk, or or the ingredients that make up the musk, or whatever we’re supposed to call it) that’s used in Chanel’s Eau De Cologne & Dior’s Cologne Royale?
I could be wrong, but I’d bet good money it’s a singular synthetic ingredient, and surely has a name.

Demachy, when asked in an interview what fragrance he wears, said that while working, he wears Cologne Royale, but with the musk removed.

In another interview, when the topic of musks came up, he said: “Sadly there is no availability of natural musk anymore; anything you buy on the market will be synthetic”.


As stated in my original post, my hope is that we as a community have a better understanding of these ingredients. Their individual ingredient names would be a great starting point.

 

[David Ruskin]

I am very surprised that Demachy wears any fragrance when working in perfumery, we never did.

If you are interested in the various musk chemicals available I suggest you visit the DIY Forum, and search for Paul Kiler's excellent posts.

I have no idea which musks are used in the Chanel or Dior fragrances you mention. The most common musks used are Galaxolide, Tonalide, and Ethylene Brassylate. they are all macrocyclic musks. There are many other chemicals that are described as having a musk odour.

To repeat myself; "White Musk" is a meaningless, marketing term.

 

[GWM]

Of course Demachy is speaking about natural musk not being available for use in the industry.

 

[imm0rtelle]

Demachy, when asked in an interview what fragrance he wears, said that while working, he wears Cologne Royale, but with the musk removed.

That's cool. I would be interested in something like that. I feel like musks take away from the purity of an eau de cologne.

As stated in my original post, my hope is that we as a community have a better understanding of these ingredients. Their individual ingredient names would be a great starting point.

If you're serious, then this is what you're looking for as a starting point: https://sci-hub.se/https://doi.org/10.1002/anie.202005719

 

[Opiate]

That's cool. I would be interested in something like that. I feel like musks take away from the purity of an eau de cologne.

Me too! The top & heart notes of both Cologne Royale & Chanel’s EDC are to die for, unfortunately the musk used in them ruins it for me. I wish I was anosmic to it.

If you're serious, then this is what you're looking for as a starting point: https://sci-hub.se/https://doi.org/10.1002/anie.202005719

Thank you, I’ll definitely give It a read.

 

[David Ruskin]

So what’s the name of the musk (or musk accord, or “non-white” musk, or or the ingredients that make up the musk, or whatever we’re supposed to call it) that’s used in Chanel’s Eau De Cologne & Dior’s Cologne Royale?
I could be wrong, but I’d bet good money it’s a singular synthetic ingredient, and surely has a name.

Demachy, when asked in an interview what fragrance he wears, said that while working, he wears Cologne Royale, but with the musk removed.

In another interview, when the topic of musks came up, he said: “Sadly there is no availability of natural musk anymore; anything you buy on the market will be synthetic”.


As stated in my original post, my hope is that we as a community have a better understanding of these ingredients. Their individual ingredient names would be a great starting point.

I see that you have modified the post that I originally replied to; not sure why. To repeat, I am surprised that any perfumer would wear any type of fragrance whilst working. I never did, nor did my colleagues. I think it is still possible to find natural musk, although most perfumers realise just how vile it is to obtain it.

Once again, to repeat myself. If you are interested in finding out about all of the chemicals described as having a musk odour, may I suggest you go to the DIY Forum, and find the posts made by Paul Kiler. They are most informative.

It is possible to use a single musk chemical in a fragrance, although it is more usual to use a mixture.

 

[David Ruskin]

To do some work for you all. The Paul Kiler thread that I have been referring to is called "Musks and Animalics", and is a very detailed list of all the chemicals and speciality bases used to create the smell of musk and animalic notes.

 

[David Ruskin]

Sorry imm0rtelle; what's funny?

 

[Opiate]

I see that you have modified the post that I originally replied to; not sure why. To repeat, I am surprised that any perfumer would wear any type of fragrance whilst working. I never did, nor did my colleagues. I think it is still possible to find natural musk, although most perfumers realise just how vile it is to obtain it.

Once again, to repeat myself. If you are interested in finding out about all of the chemicals described as having a musk odour, may I suggest you go to the DIY Forum, and find the posts made by Paul Kiler. They are most informative.

It is possible to use a single musk chemical in a fragrance, although it is more usual to use a mixture.

I edited my post to add the Demachy quote about natural & synthetic musks. if that’s the post you’re referring to?
If your referring to a different post or something else- I usually have to go back and edit all my posts due to being dyslexic, and after re-reading what I wrote, I go back to fix my spelling or sentence structure errors. (Sometimes I might add something else to it as well).
Is that okay with you?

As for your original post- I haven’t had a chance to go search for that thread and read it yet. A link would’ve made it much easier. But I will find it, and read up on it.
And thank you for this quote “The most common musks used are Galaxolide, Tonalide, and Ethylene Brassylate. they are all macrocyclic musks.”

I’ll read up on them as well and see if I can get ahold of them, in hopes of placing which ones are used in which fragrances.

Not sure why you seem so aggravated about this topic and acting like all of this is common knowledge and it’s annoying that you have to set us straight.
My apologies for burdening you.

Anyway, Thanks for sharing. Sorry for whatever I/we did to apparently piss you off.

 

[GWM]

BTW Khiel's Musk is mostly Galaxolide.

 

[David Ruskin]

Sorry Opiate, if you think I sound aggravated, I am not. As far as I am concerned, it is common knowledge. I'm used to posting on the DIY Forum.

 

[Opiate]

BTW Khiel's Musk is mostly Galaxolide.

There we go, thank you!
Now we’re putting names to smells.
That was the point of my thread- what are the names of these musks and which is used in which fragrances.

David’s post saying theres no such thing as white musk and that it’s a marketing term, highlights just how little we know about these musks.
Everyone uses the term “white musk”. Perfumers, brands, critics, Luca Turin, reviewers, knowledgeable people in the community, etc.
And now here‘s some who knows what they’re talking about saying it’s not a real thing.
So what do we call them? What are their names? Which is which?
“Musk” is clearly the category, just like “florals” or “woods” or “herbs”.
But I want us to know which musk is which and what they’re names are, just like we know the names of individual flowers, woods & herbs that are used.

Thats the point of this thread.

 

[Opiate]

Sorry Opiate, if you think I sound aggravated, I am not. As far as I am concerned, it is common knowledge. I'm used to posting on the DIY Forum.

It’s okay, no worries! Apologies if I also responded harshly.
Perhaps it’s common knowledge over there and amongst perfumers, but I feel like most of us are in the dark when it comes to these musks (see my previous post).

We know which flowers are which, we know which woods or herbs or fruits are which, but when it comes to musks, the only vocabulary we have to rely on is “musk” or “white musk” or “laundry musk”.
I just want to shed some light on these musks, what their individual names and accords are, and which is used in which perfumes.