Sample Pass: "Old ~vs~ New" Vertical Testings

[CookBot]

Some of us vintage hounds were kicking around ideas about themes for a possible sample pass, and we settled on the idea of a vertical testing of "Old versus New" -- that is, comparison sniffings of perfumes that have been in production for a long time and have undergone alterations over the years.

Nine of us have contributed decants of multiple iterations of well-known perfumes and will be shipping them from one person to the next, as we each post our impressions of our testing here in this thread.

Because we have 5ml decants of each scent, we believe there's room for three one more person to join this pass, and are opening the pass up for more partipants.

If you'd like to join us, just drop me a PM. Requirements are that you are located in the Continental U.S., have been a member of Basenotes for at least six months, and have made at least 200 posts. You'll agree to post your impressions of the scents, and to cover the shipping cost of sending them on to the next pass participant within two to three weeks of receiving them. In your PM, please mention which U.S. state you're in.

These are the members that are on board so far:

LiveJazz
Varanis Ridari
PStoller
Dorje123 *added 3/13/23
Starblind *rejoined July 2023
Tea_Lily
Bavard
epapsiou
IsoESuperman
grayspoole
Toxicon *added 3/3/23
Cook.bot

And these are the scents we'll be sampling:

Fragrance--House--Perfumer--Approximate Year of Sample--Concentration

Leather Chypre
Cabochard--Gres--Bernard Chant--1959--Parfum
Cabochard--Gres--Chant--~1989-2010--EDT
Cabochard--Gres--??--2019--EDP

Russian/smooth leathers
Cuir--Lancome--Calice Becker--2008 version--EDP
Cuir--Lancome---"vintage TBD"--EDP

Cuir de Russie--Chanel ----1950's--EDC
Cuir de Russie--Chanel----1970s--EDT

Floral/violet leathers
Jolie Madame--Balmain--Germaine Cellier--1953--EDP
Bottega Veneta (femme)--Bottega Veneta--Michel Almairac--2011--EDP

Fahrenheit--Christian Dior--Sieuzac & Almairac--1989--EDT
Fahrenheit--Christian Dior--?--2015--EDT

Tobacco/Fougere
Havana--Aramis--Feisthauer and Renard--1990s--EDT
Havana--Aramis--?--2015ish--EDT
Montana Parfum d'Homme--Montana--Edouard Flechier--90s--Edp
Czech & Speake--Cuba--modern--EDT

Leather/fougere/tobacco adjacent
Or Black--Pascal Morabito--Jean-Louis Sieuzac--90s--EDT
Or Black--Pascal Morabito--?--2016ish rerelease--EDT

Old (and new) Spices
Early American Old Spice--Shulton
Old Spice--modern version

Roudnitska Corner
Moustache--Rochas--Roudnitska---1950-60s -- original EDC
Moustache Concentree--Rochas--Roudnitska--1949--EDC
Moustache --Rochas--Natalie Gracia-Cetto--2018--EDP
Moustache--Rochas--?--2018--EDT

Diorella--Christian Dior--Roudnitska--"vintage"--EDT
Diorella extrait--Christian Dior--Roudnitska--"vintage"--Parfum
(If anyone would like to contribute a sample of the modern Diorella from the "Les Creations de Monsieur Dior" line, we'd love to have it for comparison.)

Greenery
Vent Vert--Balmain--Germaine Cellier--TBD--EDT
Vent Vert--Balmain--Calice Becker--1991--EDT
Vent Vert--Balmain--Nathalie Feisthauer--ca. 2000--EDT
Vert--Clandestine Laboratories--Mark Sage--2021 (for comparison with Verts)

And a random incense, because why not
Messe de Minuit--Etro--Bertrand Duchaufour--1994 (round label)--EdC

============================

LiveJazz has been serving as our collection depot for all the samples, and we'll be kicking things off with his notes on his impressions whenever he's had a chance to get through them and gather his thoughts.

 

[nosey74]

Looking forward to reading everyone’s opinions.

 

[grayspoole]

Looking forward to reading everyone’s opinions.

Same. Let’s get this party started…and as Cook.bot wrote, there’s room for a few more.

 

[LiveJazz]

Here we go!! Thanks @Cook.bot for initiating this adventure.

I'll just go in order of the list, starting with the Cabochards. Having sniffed through a good number of samples as I've been collecting them from afar, I thought these were among the most interesting to compare. Lots of variety among the versions.

Cabochard vintage 1959 parfum
Butter smooth on top, seems to hop right into a soft leathery-animalic base territory. Skips over most of the crisp greens Cabochard is known for. Big floral tones. Ylang at first I think, and then more jasmine, and it seems to become spiced, perhaps via carnation. Something smells like honey and/or civet and I'm pretty sure...pipe tobacco? Yes indeed, I think so. Sticky sweet pipe tobacco, in all its glory, but not too much. This feels very luxurious and thick by Cabochard standards...on the spectrum of this kind of leather, this has more of the warmth of e.g. Azuree, and the rich, decadent, animalic/semi indolic florals making me think of perhaps Amouage Gold Woman, or something of that scale. Seems to call for formal attire. The honeyed and lightly spiced animalic florals here are actually making me think about Kouros, of all things...which after all was modeled in many ways after the heavy feminine floral chypres, and given its famous antiseptic aromatics to man itself up. This is the epic, luxurious Cabochard persona.

Cabochard vintage EDT splash (anyone know the approximate dates of these bottles? Pic attached)
Edit: I think it's roughly from the 1980s after some Googling
Smells sharper and more aldehydic on top. Soap tones, more crisp. Floral smells more rosey and dewy, and there is a clearer green galbanum slap. Base is far, far lighter and brighter than the parfum, probably leaning more on vetiver/woods/moss with its leather, compared to the enveloping spiced leathery-animalism of the parfum. A very different scent overall. This is the version I know best (and own)...it's an easy spring/summer green leathery chypre, something I can wear with ease. I'd have to think twice about committing to the parfum, as beautiful as it is.

2019 EDP:
You can smell the Cabochard reference though the heart and base, but this seems like a fairly distinct composition, especially to start. The opening does not seem all that green to me (more sweet and floral, and it has this meaty texture which could be the kind of thing you'd only pick up in contrast to the other versions...it's subtle). There is a certain polished intensity that is not present in other versions. I'm not sure I love the top...smelling against the EDT and Parfum it feels bloated and overstuffed. It's almost like some other scent, a heavy thick modern floral, has been dumped on top of Cabochard, and the two aren't really tied together. The intensity of that top fades after around 30 min, and we're left with something I enjoy much more...version of Cabochard that is less "vintage brown leather" and more "modern suede leather", but is still sufficiently Cabochard-y to be recognizable and pleasant. My wife liked this version, and thought the top reminded her of a heavy floral vanillic scent she owns, Dior Addict. Not sure I agree entirely, but it's in line with my general impression of a heavy sweet/thick layer on top.

 

[CookBot]

Great news! @Toxicon is going to join in with us. He's also along the Eastern seaboard route, so I'm going to slot him in between Grayspoole and myself.

 

[Toxicon]

Great news! @Toxicon is going to join in with us. He's also along the Eastern seaboard route, so I'm going to slot him in between Grayspoole and myself.

Thrilled to participate, and thanks for having me! I only own a handful of these and haven’t had a chance to compare vintages, so this is quite the opportunity.

 

[CookBot]

Looking forward to reading everyone’s opinions.

Are you sure you wouldn't like to join in with us, Nosey? I think you'd be a terrific addition to the group.

 

[CookBot]

Cabochard vintage EDT splash (anyone know the approximate dates of these bottles? Pic attached)

Oh! The EDT you contributed and reviewed (splash pinch bottle, twiggy black/white packaging) is older than what I expected. I thought you were contributing juice from one of the post-1990 bottles, the ones that had a frosted glass bow embossed on the bottles, like this, in both EDT and EDP concentrations:


Since these were what is generally considered "the dismal years" for Cabochard ("gaunt, bleary-eyed...chewed down to a frazzle by accountant moths", per Luca Turin), it's probably just as well we aren't looking at them here -- except that they make the most recent iteration (2019) look so very good by comparison.

I read a rumor online (I've forgotten exactly where) that perfumer Miguel Matos was involved in this recent reformulation, but I've never heard that confirmed anywhere. If so, he gets applause from me, because I think this newest one is a huge improvement on the prior 30 years of Cabochard.

 

[LiveJazz]

Oh! The EDT you contributed and reviewed (splash pinch bottle, twiggy black/white packaging) is older than what I expected. I thought you were contributing juice from one of the post-1990 bottles, the ones that had a frosted glass bow embossed on the bottles, like this, in both EDT and EDP concentrations:

View attachment 325077
Since these were what is generally considered "the dismal years" for Cabochard ("gaunt, bleary-eyed...chewed down to a frazzle by accountant moths", per Luca Turin), it's probably just as well we aren't looking at them here -- except that they make the most recent iteration (2019) look so very good by comparison.

I read a rumor online (I've forgotten exactly where) that perfumer Miguel Matos was involved in this recent reformulation, but I've never heard that confirmed anywhere. If so, he gets applause from me, because I think this newest one is a huge improvement on the prior 30 years of Cabochard.

After a little searching, I think my EDT is from the 80s. I think you're going to like it! And there must have been a ton of them sold at that time, because there seem to be a lot of them for sale and it's still a rare refuge from generally insane vintage prices.

I feel like the EDP could have followed what Chanel did with No 5, and been released as something like Cabocard Eau Premier. It reads as an intentional modernization, as opposed to an attempt at faithful reproduction with materials restrictions. Which is fine -- I just wish houses would be more forthright in those scenarios.

 

[Toxicon]

Oh! The EDT you contributed and reviewed (splash pinch bottle, twiggy black/white packaging) is older than what I expected. I thought you were contributing juice from one of the post-1990 bottles, the ones that had a frosted glass bow embossed on the bottles, like this, in both EDT and EDP concentrations:

View attachment 325077
Since these were what is generally considered "the dismal years" for Cabochard ("gaunt, bleary-eyed...chewed down to a frazzle by accountant moths", per Luca Turin), it's probably just as well we aren't looking at them here -- except that they make the most recent iteration (2019) look so very good by comparison.

I read a rumor online (I've forgotten exactly where) that perfumer Miguel Matos was involved in this recent reformulation, but I've never heard that confirmed anywhere. If so, he gets applause from me, because I think this newest one is a huge improvement on the prior 30 years of Cabochard.

I saw that rumor too, then managed to track it down around when I got my bottle of the 2019 juice. Miguel was doing a video interview about some of his favorite fragrances, and he listed Cabochard as one of his all time favorites. He then mentioned that Lalique brought him on to consult on the reformulation. I forget exactly what he said, but if I recall, it sounds like he was at least providing feedback and possibly directly involved with the reform process. Interesting stuff.

I love the 2019 reformulations for what they are, but I think I know what @LiveJazz means about the modern floral top on the EDP. Interestingly, that aspect is toned way down on the 2019 EDT, which reads as more masculine or unisex and a bit closer to Aramis. The EDP pads out the front with florals and more noticeable ylang note, then settles into the same leather-moss chypre base, just with a bit more amber in the EDP. I wound up gifting the EDT to a Basenotes friend since the two were so similar; in some ways I prefer the scent profile of the EDT, though the EDP has better longevity. Really looking forward to trying vintage specimens.

 

[CookBot]

Interestingly, that aspect is toned way down on the 2019 EDT, which reads as more masculine or unisex and a bit closer to Aramis. The EDP pads out the front with florals and more noticeable ylang note, then settles into the same leather-moss chypre base, just with a bit more amber in the EDP.

I own the new EDP, but sounds like I need to get my hands on the new EDT as well. I'd like a less ambery version.

 

[nosey74]

Are you sure you wouldn't like to join in with us, Nosey? I think you'd be a terrific addition to the group.

Thanks for your vote of confidence but I will observe this one from the sidelines 😊

 

[Scent_Insensibility]

Not being in the US ( and definitely not having 200 posts ! ) I can't join in other than virtually. I do have many of the vintages to be discussed ( all generations of Vent Vert, Joile Madame and the odd one from the others ) so maybe I can do mine from afar ?!

What I do have most of by far is Cabochard. I love Chant above all others and Cab and AE are the reason as they were my first ( but very quickly not my last ) oh, about 43 years ago 🙈

It's funny I was asked about the variations just yesterday. All my oldest ones ( 60's - I have a bottle actually dated 1966, the year I was born. Not as good as a Batch Code but I choose to assume it was filled shorty afterwards ! ) are various EDTs colognes and parfum ( no longer EDPs, yet of course ). All, I find, are softer, more rounded, smoother. Much more floral top notes than the modern ones, green yes but they feel more "feminine", before Chant's wonderful leather comes through. Now, that smoothness maybe as much a factor of aging as of age but all have it.

As we hit the 80's ( if you have a box the black and white "grass" is slightly thicker pattern. They become standard atomisers not splash or propellant ). That subtleness declines but it's still fundamentally the same, less floral, definitely green, but still "vintage" Cab. So, if yiu have these, you've smelled it as it was (more or less ).

By the time the bow bottles appear ( as pictured, clear , frosted, hexagon, oval ) those florals all but gone. A harsher, green leather. Very "masculine". Quite simple, quite stringent. Not the best version.

Now...a return , if not to form, to something approximating it. I agree, it's the modern versions that are closest to Aramis if that's what you prefer especially the EDT ( I happily wear all Chant's creations whomever they were created for ). It's still a leather "chypre" ( as much as it can be ) but the base feels almost "soapy" like they used aldehydic notes to supplement it. When it dries down it has a feel of Charlie by Revlon ! ( A compliment btw ) .Still Cabochard though. Now more than any time in the last 20 years. Also....that you can that quality for a just over a tenner is amazing !!

 

[CookBot]

Now...a return , if not to form, to something approximating it. I agree, it's the modern versions that are closest to Aramis if that's what you prefer especially the EDT ( I happily wear all Chant's creations whomever they were created for ). It's still a leather "chypre" ( as much as it can be ) but the base feels almost "soapy" like they used aldehydic notes to supplement it.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on Cabo, and please do chime in whenever you feel inclined as we go through these scents.

I'm happy to hear from others others who think the recent Cabo is a welcome revision. I do own some of those pre-1990s "twiggy box" versions, the last decent ones before this current reincarnation. LiveJazz is right, I think, that the leather is now more of a modernized suede-ish feel than the IBQ of old, but apparently I like that style. We're going to see it again when Bottega Veneta gets contrasted with the vintage leather of Jolie Madame. I consider BV a sort of grandchild of the Jolie, where violets + leather gets transformed into violets + suede.

 

[Toxicon]

I own the new EDP, but sounds like I need to get my hands on the new EDT as well. I'd like a less ambery version.

Yeah, I'm considering picking up another bottle of the EDT just to have it; and I'd probably wear it more often, to be honest. Good news is the EDT goes for peanuts - I've seen it as low as $13 at the discounters.

 

[Scent_Insensibility]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on Cabo, and please do chime in whenever you feel inclined as we go through these scents.

I'm happy to hear from others others who think the recent Cabo is a welcome revision. I do own some of those pre-1990s "twiggy box" versions, the last decent ones before this current reincarnation. LiveJazz is right, I think, that the leather is now more of a modernized suede-ish feel than the IBQ of old, but apparently I like that style. We're going to see it again when Bottega Veneta gets contrasted with the vintage leather of Jolie Madame. I consider BV a sort of grandchild of the Jolie, where violets + leather gets transformed into violets + suede.

Thank you for letting me join the party. There's so few opportunities to talk about vintage and especially my favourites ( and Chant's are the top of the pile - with Cellier a close second !)

I do get that modern "suede" leather thing. BV was the first time I smelled it and was really confused that a saw "leather" but "smelled" ,er, candle wax ? It's grown on me but as I only knew isoquinoline, it was really confusing 😂. I find the current Cab sits some wear betwixt and between.

I really look forward to taking about Joile Madame ( violets and leather: match made in heaven !)

Oh, and we really must talk about Bandit ...

 

[LiveJazz]

Ok, so I'm going a little out of order. Wearing the Cuir de Russies today and will compare the Lancome Cuirs tomorrow. In the meantime, since there's been some mention of Jolie Madame and Bottega Veneta, here are my notes on those:

Jolie Madame
The main thing I smell off the top is a very smooth and dry leather, set against a soft green floral accord that is somewhat grassy and somewhat powdery / violet dominant. A simple two-part harmony, straightforward and attractive. I feel like this was a direct inspiration for the (now sadly discontinued) Heely Cuir Pleine Cuir. The leather here is a little less polished/modern in nature, but the overall effect of soft-green florals and soft leather is similar...you can just relax and sink into it. The word that comes to mind is mellow. It may not be the most exciting or interesting vintage leather, but it is pleasing and asks little of the wearer. You could wear this just about anywhere and people will think you smell distinctive, nice and approachable. Hard to fault. Could easily be a daily driver or workplace scent for a vintage leather lover. It presents no challenging, animalic or rough facets. That could be interpreted as a negative, but we need scents like that, which still have character. This is that.

Bottega Veneta
Modern suede leather, and also a uniquely grown-up fruity floral. A modern designer that is attractive to broad audiences, yet refined and interesting enough for a hobbyist. The foundational leather accord is fairly dry and has the papery texture, as in papyrus, and there's firm, earthy patchouli giving a satisfying weight that doesn't dominate the leather or feel overly aggressive in context. Just a masterclass in integration and balance. The surrounding and opening notes are knitted right into the core of leather-patchouli, making it difficult for me to pick out specific notes, but I can say that the overall effect is sweetened-but-not-too-sweet, a tiny bit prickly with dry spices (I guess that would be the listed pink pepper), and fruity with a tone that is softly sweet and "purple" in my mind's eye. I know this is often referenced as plum...maybe I haven't smelled enough plums recently to say for sure, but it seems plausible. Like Jolie Madame, this is pleasant and mellow, and I do agree with those two see Bottega Veneta as a modern counterpart to the classic.

Architecturally, this reminds me a bit of Lutens Feminite du Bois, which is another where the surrounding notes give a generally impression of sleek, super-integrated fruity (plummy?), floral, spiced purpleness, where no individual note stands out to my nose. In terms of general effect and texture, though their foundations are different, I think they are going for a similar effect. Feminite du Bois goes about it with a woody foundation, Bottega Veneta with suede smooth leather and patchouli.

 

[Diddy]

Just seeing the thread and look forward to reading everyone’s impressions.

 

[PStoller]

FYI: This is the older Cuir de Lancôme I decanted for the pass.

 

[Scent_Insensibility]

S'cuse me while I drool 🤤 ( and feel green with envy !). I've only ever smelled the reissued one.

Incidentally, I have Magie in that bottle with a stuck stopper, only one that's defeated me, so far.... I tried all the usual methods and get it out occasionally for another go. Luckily I have another one I can use but it haunts me 😂