Pure hedione as a fragrance?

[Big L]

There is a very long road between knowing what you like and knowing how to express that with pure aroma chemicals. Still, every journey begins with a single step, and you just made that step. Good luck! I am looking forward to your updates.

 

[mnitabach]

I updated my order to add allyl amyl glycolate (pineapple), ethyl butyrate (pineapple), sweet orange EO, DPG to pre-dilute ethyl maltol, and some small test bottles. Everything came out to less than an average fragrance. I know exactly what I like/dislike, so I think these are the ingredients for a signature! Airy, fruity, sweet, fresh. I'll update you guys when I get my materials and get to blending

This is a decent way to get started with perfumery! I think you are going to find very quickly that you will want to buy some additional materials to take your composition to a place where it smells like "real perfume". Right off the bat, I am sure you will want some musk. But starting with hedione, ethyl maltol, and some powerful top as you have will allow you to make some very interesting accords & start learning.

Definitely come back when you get blending & report your experimental observations!

 

[santeripe]

There is a very long road between knowing what you like and knowing how to express that with pure aroma chemicals. Still, every journey begins with a single step, and you just made that step. Good luck! I am looking forward to your updates.

I know, fragrances don't take a year to make for no reason haha. I'm starting the road to my ideal "signature" now and will slowly build up to it. I'll start with pure hedione and see what small I changes I can make to improve on it and make it my own.

This is a decent way to get started with perfumery! I think you are going to find very quickly that you will want to buy some additional materials to take your composition to a place where it smells like "real perfume". Right off the bat, I am sure you will want some musk. But starting with hedione, ethyl maltol, and some powerful top as you have will allow you to make some very interesting accords & start learning.

Definitely come back when you get blending & report your experimental observations!

Thank you! I'm probably in a minority for loving super simple and transparent musk-less scents like the Molecule 01+ series and BR540. BR540 Extrait adds musk, but I think that ruins the transparent magic the EDP has. It's possible to get a rough sketch of the EDP with like 4 ingredients. I'm looking to create a rough transparent sketch like that, but my own version. Maybe I'll find it lacking, but even orange EO + hedione sounds like an amazing scent

 

[mnitabach]

Dunno abt "molecule" series, but pretty sure all perfumes have musks. There are very transparent musks lacking strong affirmative scents that can be used for "muskless" frags, but that still confer desirable effects of smoothness, drydown longevity, exaltation, etc. There is a great thread here on BR540 drydown that expanded into a fuller discussion of the frag. There is pretty much zero doubt that original BR540 has musk molecules in it. (The presence or absence of "musk" as one of the notes listed in the fragrance marketing materials doesn't mean shit.)

 

[santeripe]

Dunno abt "molecule" series, but pretty sure all perfumes have musks. There are very transparent musks lacking strong affirmative scents that can be used for "muskless" frags, but that still confer desirable effects of smoothness, drydown longevity, exaltation, etc. There is a great thread here on BR540 drydown that expanded into a fuller discussion of the frag. There is pretty much zero doubt that original BR540 has musk molecules in it. (The presence or absence of "musk" as one of the notes listed in the fragrance marketing materials doesn't mean shit.)

1000x times less musk than DPG according to that thread, wouldn't imagine it making much of an impact ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[mnitabach]

1000x times less musk than DPG according to that thread, wouldn't imagine it making much of an impact ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The ratio of musk to DPG is irrelevant. What matters is the ratio of musk to other aromachemicals. The amount of ambrettolide in that formula is absolutely plenty to have a substantial impact, which of course is why it's in there.

Everyone comes into perfumery (and this forum) with a lot of assumptions that seem obviously correct, yet turn out to be completely incorrect. Those who make progress have the ability to set aside their assumptions based on experience. Those who remain firmly attached to their faulty assumptions generally fail to make progress in perfumery and disappear from the forum.

 

[Big L]

Balancing hedione with other molecules to keep its individual character is a highly complex task. You would probably need molecules to complement its different notes, perhaps some citrusy molecules and other related jasmone molecules. Very different than the ones you bought. I suggest you experiment and familiarize yourself with the ones you ordered, then continue your research, get more ingredients and experiment further.

This is not said to discourage you, quite the opposite. I share your love for simplicity (check out my 8 line formulas project). The dislike for musk I personally don't have, but you are not alone there as well. The celebrated genius Jean-Claude Ellena, one of the world-leading perfumers, dislikes musks and often said he uses none of them in his perfumes. His alternative, to no surprise, is hedione which, according to him, he uses in all of his formulas.

 

[santeripe]

The ratio of musk to DPG is irrelevant. What matters is the ratio of musk to other aromachemicals. The amount of ambrettolide in that formula is absolutely plenty to have a substantial impact, which of course is why it's in there.

Everyone comes into perfumery (and this forum) with a lot of assumptions that seem obviously correct, yet turn out to be completely incorrect. Those who make progress have the ability to set aside their assumptions based on experience. Those who remain firmly attached to their faulty assumptions generally fail to make progress in perfumery and disappear from the forum.

Yeah absolutely, I haven't blended a single ingredient yet! My love for everything lacking muskiness and "substance" just implies that I would probably love a self-made simplistic formula that doesn't have a lot of muskiness and "substance". I highly doubt this preference will change with me making the scent. None of the +100 professionally composed fragrances I've tried have changed it. But requiring musk that only balances out things without adding "substance" is likely the case, and that's a technical thing I will need to learn. I especially love the Molecule 01+ series because it's so "non-perfumey".

 

[mnitabach]

Yeah absolutely, I haven't blended a single ingredient yet! My love for everything lacking muskiness and "substance" just implies that I would probably love a self-made simplistic formula that doesn't have a lot of muskiness and "substance". I highly doubt this preference will change with me making the scent. None of the +100 professionally composed fragrances I've tried have changed it. But requiring musk that only balances out things without adding "substance" is likely the case, and that's a technical thing I will need to learn. I especially love the Molecule 01+ series because it's so "non-perfumey".

Sounds like you have the right attitude to do well with perfumery! 😹 😹 😹 If you come here with detailed accounting of exactly what you did, exactly what happened, and what you want to happen that didn't happen, you will get tons of good advice.

(Sadly, we have ppl show up here with analogous "straightforward" goals as yours, yet become belligerent when told that the "simple" questions they demand answers to aren't actually simple, don't have answers, and regardless won't help them achieve their goals.)

 

[santeripe]

Sounds like you have the right attitude to do well with perfumery! 😹 😹 😹 If you come here with detailed accounting of exactly what you did, exactly what happened, and what you want to happen that didn't happen, you will get tons of good advice.

(Sadly, we have ppl show up here with analogous "straightforward" goals as yours, yet become belligerent when told that the "simple" questions they demand answers to aren't actually simple, don't have answers, and regardless won't help them achieve their goals.)

I think it's pretty rad to make a signature perfume for yourself. Time could be spent doing way more mundane and pointless things! Trouble and learning is a part of every hobby. Gaming or sports wouldn't be fun if everyone was automatically a master.

I don't have any practical experience, but I do know that I want to create a beautiful simple fresh-sweet scent that's transparent like a breeze of air. That automatically rules out tobacco, ambers and other heavy-hitters. The rest I'll have to figure out with experience. Now I'll stop talking and wait for the ingredients to arrive before I get ahead of myself haha

 

[mnitabach]

I think it's pretty rad to make a signature perfume for yourself. Time could be spent doing way more mundane and pointless things! Trouble and learning is a part of every hobby. Gaming or sports wouldn't be fun if everyone was automatically a master.

I don't have any practical experience, but I do know that I want to create a beautiful simple fresh-sweet scent that's transparent like a breeze of air. That automatically rules out tobacco, ambers and other heavy-hitters. The rest I'll have to figure out with experience. Now I'll stop talking and wait for the ingredients to arrive before I get ahead of myself haha

One thing that's pretty important if you want to design fragrances that you enjoy for yourself, is to let go of the "note" designations that commercial perfumes are marketed with. These are all just bullshit puffery & if you constrain your thinking by such ontology, you'll miss out on a lot of great possibilities. For example, IMO you absolutely could make a "simple fresh-sweet scent that's transparent like a breeze of air" that has aspects of "tobacco" & "amber".

Anyway, as you say, this is all just words & soon you'll start blending!

 

[AoF]

Thank you, that's exactly what I'm looking for! Iso-E is very perceptible for me. On some days I could go for something even lighter. I bought Firmenich hedione, two 50ml bottles, an atomizer, a cap, two droppers, and a funnel. Denatured alcohol isn't sold at Hekserij. But I can easily get 1000ml for a couple euros at a local store here in Finland.

And to fullfill another sick and twisted fantasy of mine, I also got 10 grams of ethyl maltol powder to experiment. I'm going to try spiking hedione with cotton candy. Like BR540, but even more minimalistic. Or just wear the jammy sweetness on its own. Geza Schöen is probably getting shivers without even reading this.

Can you share where you’ve found the denatured alcohol? I’m also in Finland and having trouble with that, there’s very few choices of lightly denatured ethanol, and they’re expensive.

Also, if you need more materials in the future, check perfumiarz.com, the shipping is much more affordable (9€ I believe it was) than dehekserij’s.

 

[santeripe]

Can you share where you’ve found the denatured alcohol? I’m also in Finland and having trouble with that, there’s very few choices of lightly denatured ethanol, and they’re expensive.

Also, if you need more materials in the future, check perfumiarz.com, the shipping is much more affordable (9€ I believe it was) than dehekserij’s.

I hadn't looked into the different types of denaturants when I said that. It turns out there isn't any way for a regular person here to get lightly denatured alcohol. Freely available denatured ethanol blends have bitter odorants. I've resulted to diluting with DPG. And I'm probably not going to dilute much, as it's for my own use.

On a side note, I just bought essential oils of mandarin, lime, bergamot and grapefruit before my big order arrives! I have the idea of creating my own natural citrus accord from these, and slapping it with a huge dose of hedione to create a simple fresh transparent "natural" fragrance. Perhaps hedione at +50% will work as a fixative. Combined with only applying on clothes or hair, due to natural citrus being phototoxic. Fabric/fiber will slow evaporation. But it'll still project due to the massive dosage of essential oil. I'll have to see if this idea works in practice. Screw IFRA's 0,7% limits

 

[darkwitch]

Some non-alcoholic Hair and Body mists apparently use a lot of IPM, IsoPropyl Myristate, which is not as viscous as DPG and easier to atomize.

 

[RPLens]

I'm also thinking about mixing both types of Hedione just with alcohol...
But in which concentrations?
Or is that the thing about creating a perfume - finding that percentage which is the sweet spot?

 

[RPLens]

But for Hedione (HC) its not so much about the "smell" as such, more interesting is the activation of the pheromone receptor VN1R1. Which already works in minimal concentrations.

That's what I love about this topic, it's so obvious.
It became really obvious when he added pineapple accords to his order.

 

[Big L]

You should try to find the concentration that works for you, but it is a good idea to have some ballpark or a starting point.

In a "normal" perfume, using hedione for its effect, it will be around 0.5% of the final product, sometimes it can get much higher, like 2.5%. I would imagine in a hedione only perfume, 1-2% in alcohol will be a good place to start.

 

[santeripe]

That's what I love about this topic, it's so obvious.
It became really obvious when he added pineapple accords to his order.

Pineapple is my favorite fruit, I mainly love super minimalist transparent scents, and I've never found a fragrance that's too minimalist for me. That's all lol. Just trying to gather together everything I personally love and create something from them. I most love wearing fragrance all by myself after a shower.

Instead of synthetic pineapple, I'm thinking of going for a natural citrus opening. I've already made an amazing blend from mandarin, grapefruit and lime EOs. Interested to see how this'll perform on clothes/hair mixed with hedione!

 

[RPLens]

You should try to find the concentration that works for you, but it is a good idea to have some ballpark or a starting point.

In a "normal" perfume, using hedione for its effect, it will be around 0.5% of the final product, sometimes it can get much higher, like 2.5%. I would imagine in a hedione only perfume, 1-2% in alcohol will be a good place to start.

2% seems to be really low, no?
How much Iso E does Molecule 01 have?

I would probably try a fantasy creation, with a 15% EDT concentration.

4% Hedione
6% Hedione HC
--- 10% Hedione

1,5% Ambrofix
1,5% Calone or cascalone
2% Bergamot

=== 15% concentration

Don't ask me how I come up with this, it's purely fantasy.
But I would like to smell it.

 

[Big L]

It is up to you of course to experiment and find what you like, this is what it's all about. Still, I believe you might be surprised by how little can go a very long way. Calone and Bergamot, for example, are usually not dosed at the same order of magnitude. For Calone 1.5% is probably at least 10 times (and to be honest, more like 100 times) more than what you would usually want to use.

You can have a look here to find the common concentrations for many ingredients: https://www.unguentarius.com/ingredient-statistics

It is often beneficial to go very far up or down from these common "comfort zones". Nevertheless, doing it out of well-informed intention, rather than unknowingly, can prevent a lot of frustration.