New Michael Malul x Gents Scents "Blue Ridge" & "Terra Nova"

[Red Hawk]

Hmm,

This is a rather interesting discussion because with the rise of "influencers" in social media in the modern age, it appears that social media has become the "new media" of this age and when it comes to fragrance as an industry, in order to continue to make the profits they are accustomed to, it's now "adapt or die" for them. So, my perception is that this is only the beginning and we fragrance enthusiasts are going to see this become the "norm" where fragrance influencers (and influencers in general) will be a conduit for pushing fragrances in the future. I don't wish this to be the case, but I'm just reporting what I am foreseeing. So, people, we better get used to seeing this type of thing grow into the future. It's where the future money is at and that's obvious.

That being said, as fragrance enthusiasts, we can support real fragrance artists who start their own small businesses and small houses that support lesser known talent. It's up to us to support the 'niche world' of perfume. The little guy artists count on communities like ours.

Well, why should we? The little guys shouldn't be in it for the money, after all.

 

[tspencer]

Again, you kind of have things backwards and are jumping to conclusions without really listening to how this collaboration came about. Ashton didn't "use his clout to pull in a perfumer". The perfumers actually work for the big flavoring houses - Givaudan, Firmenich, etc. Ashton mentioned in his video about working with Galleria/Navitus that it's very hard to get those big flavoring houses to pay any attention to you as an individual, they only work with larger brands. In this case, Michael Malul. Ashton says that Michael Malul *offered* for him to be creative director on some of their fragrances. Same with Galleria, the company initially approached him with the offer to develop a line of fragrances. Now, did they only do that because Ashton was an "influencer" with a large established audience that the fragrances could be marketed to? Sure. But let's keep the facts straight about who initiated what.

I don't think the point is really who-contacted-who. The point is that influencers are being used to market the product. A product that was likely created before the influencer was ever contacted. I have serious doubts that Ashton was a creative director over anything. I think the scents were likely already created and auditioned then selected. That's the more likely scenario, but anything is possible, it's just not likely that Ashton directed a perfume from concept to finished touches with the help of a perfumer.

As for the perfumer, there's actually a different perfumer credited with each fragrance. Yes they've done some PDM fragrances, but they've also worked with other brands (ie Fabrice Pellegrin was credited with "Azzaro Wanted").

I think I gave a tip of the hat to Fabrice in my post that he's got a larger body of relevant work outside of PDM.

Do I trust Ashton as a creative director? Well I'll just say I like Ashton enough that I'm interested to smell what he might come up with as a creative director. The guy is obviously a big fragrance connoisseur, if the wall of fragrances behind him in every video wasn't enough evidence of that.

To be fair, many of us here on Basenotes have a large shelf of fragrances behind us as well. I own over 100 fragrances, probably close to 150, I've lost count. And I've smelled endless hundreds of fragrances at the counters and from samples I've ordered online or had sent to me by other people on this forum. I literally have 200-300 samples. Any of the Basenotes regulars I think could likely work with a perfumer to help out finalizing something with an opinion.

The real talent are the perfumers who have to work thousands of hours in a lab dripping and dropping small amounts of various components into a batch and then evaluating it, then going back to the drawing board and figuring out how to shape it and change it to make something special. That's hard work and after a while an experienced perfumer can create something really good in a short amount of time because they've already done thousands of hours of lab time and know what works and what doesn't to get what they want.

A master perfumer is also a chemist who can actually make his own chemicals in the lab. Those are some engineering-level educated people and they are rare. Many perfumers have to go to these engineers to get a brand new aroma chemical made that doesn't exist in order to get a new "effect" in their fragrance that no one else has.

He's talked about how he collected fragrances long before he started making videos on YouTube; he's even mentioned being a member here on Basenotes. I've learned about fragrances from watching his videos, and I've enjoyed fragrances that he's recommended. I think it's pretty cool for him to be working with a fragrance brand and getting his name/YouTube handle associated with these fragrances. I also appreciate that he makes gestures at trying to make the fragrances more accessible to his audience, like how Michael Malul is doing this run of 15 ml travel sizes basically at cost. That makes it a very low barrier of entry to check out all three, and so far I'm pretty pleased with the purchase.

I like Gent Scents. He's got a good nose. He's managed to put together a great channel. He's a talented influencer for fragrance. No doubt. I'm not hating on his videos. I just think if he's going to be a creative director that he should spend time trying to actually make fragrances himself? Maybe he has tried and I don't know about it. It would be better if he just marketed the fragrance and say he had a tiny bit of input on the fragrance, but minimized anything about himself on the fragrance end. If it were me, I would give full credit to the creator and shun any true responsibility for the creation. Praise the perfumer and just call myself a "marketer" or an "enthusiast" who likes the scent (and you better actually truly like the scent if you're going to recommend it).

No one is passing this off as high art. You don't have to be interested. But it's really cynical to accuse Ashton of arrogance and grifting for daring to work with a fragrance company as creative director with the intention of *gasp* making money. I hope you don't have anything in your collection that can be found on the shelves at Sephora or Ulta, if that's going to be your attitude.

I think if a fragrance is made to smell good by an artist, and it's got a great following of fans, it can certainly be high art. I am cynical about youtubers and fragrances with their names on it. It is clearly a money-making collaboration first and art is questionably secondary. And I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I'm telling you my perception. This is how it looks to me. People are making a buck and the art isn't the focus behind the scenes, but on the marketing they want to push the perception it's all about the art. That's what makes it a grift. It's not sincere in my opinion.

 

[tspencer]

Well, why should we? The little guys shouldn't be in it for the money, after all.

It's one thing when the person pushing the product is a salesman making a cut off the sales, it's another thing when the influencer makes nothing and is just telling the audience about something they like. The perfumer should get the lionshare of both money and credit.

 

[Red Hawk]

I don't think the point is really who-contacted-who. The point is that influencers are being used to market the product. A product that was likely created before the influencer was ever contacted. I have serious doubts that Ashton was a creative director over anything. I think the scents were likely already created and auditioned then selected. That's the more likely scenario, but anything is possible, it's just not likely that Ashton directed a perfume from concept to finished touches with the help of a perfumer.

Ashton has talked in his videos about going through the process of creating briefs, receiving submissions from the perfumers, and providing feedback on the submissions until settling on the final submissions that were released as the fragrances. Unless you're going to accuse Ashton of straight up lying about that process, that happened. It's quite possible the initial submission was pulled from an existing library, I'll grant that. But were all of the submissions pulled from an existing library, and nothing new was actually created in response to Ashton's feedback? Maybe...but that strains belief. Like I said earlier in the thread, it's a hyper-skeptical and hyper-cynical viewpoint with no real evidence behind it.

I think I gave a tip of the hat to Fabrice in my post that he's got a larger body of relevant work outside of PDM.

Yeah, seems like you went back and edited your post after you had a closer look at the perfumers behind these fragrances. You sounded off about these fragrances without really knowing anything about them.

I like Gent Scents. He's got a good nose. He's managed to put together a great channel. He's a talented influencer for fragrance. No doubt. I'm not hating on his videos. I just think if he's going to be a creative director that he should spend time trying to actually make fragrances himself? Maybe he has tried and I don't know about it. It would be better if he just marketed the fragrance and say he had a tiny bit of input on the fragrance, but minimized anything about himself on the fragrance end. If it were me, I would give full credit to the creator and shun any true responsibility for the creation. Praise the perfumer and just call myself a "marketer" or an "enthusiast" who likes the scent (and you better actually truly like the scent if you're going to recommend it).

If you like Gents Scents, have you actually watched the videos where he announced these fragrances? He does give credit to the perfumers he worked with on these scents.

I think if a fragrance is made to smell good by an artist, and it's got a great following of fans, it can certainly be high art. I am cynical about youtubers and fragrances with their names on it. It is clearly a money-making collaboration first and art is questionably secondary. And I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I'm telling you my perception. This is how it looks to me. People are making a buck and the art isn't the focus behind the scenes, but on the marketing they want to push the perception it's all about the art. That's what makes it a grift. It's not sincere in my opinion.

You're not accusing anyone of anything...but you're continuing to say this is a grift. Ok dude. Calling it a "grift" is pretty accusatory. Again, have you actually watched the video where he announced the fragrances? He makes it very clear that the point with these fragrances is to be mass appealing and NOT to be artistic. Here, I'll even timestamp it for you.

"Now to be fair and completely straightforward, Blue Ridge was not made for somebody who is hardcore into ultra artistic fragrances or anything. That is not at all what I was going for with this one. I was going for maximum wearability, maximum compliment factor, versatility, the kind of scent that somebody could make an absolute staple out of their wardrobe. That's what I was going for."

Where is the insincerity?

It's one thing when the person pushing the product is a salesman making a cut off the sales, it's another thing when the influencer makes nothing and is just telling the audience about something they like. The perfumer should get the lionshare of both money and credit.

Is it another thing, though? It's all just a grift, they're all just trying to make money. So none of it is sincere, right?

 

[tspencer]

It's quite possible the initial submission was pulled from an existing library, I'll grant that.

Thank you. That's all I was saying. There is nothing nefarious about this, so don't mistake what I was saying is a crime or anything. But this was about a collaboration to make money - first. Unless there is more information than what is on the surface. I'm willing to admit I'm wrong if there are facts other than what is available.

Yeah, seems like you went back and edited your post after you had a closer look at the perfumers behind these fragrances. You sounded off about these fragrances without really knowing anything about them.

No, I don't know anything about the fragrances. But I know 'of' how ALL the youtubers have gone about getting "their" fragrances made for them. It's all the same. It's a business venture and that's how they all approached it on the private end, but on the marketing they pass it off as being a completely "artistic endeavor for my channel's fans". And it's not. It would be refreshing if these influencers would just be honest. They want to make money on their channel and this is another way they are going about doing it. If they really are about the 'art', they would hand-select a perfumer and a fragrance, then promote it and let everyone know that it's a promotion and they are marketing it. Don't pretend that it's anything else and give full credit to the perfumer always. That's my only criticism in this entire thread. I have nothing against the influencers except the marketing front that is passing itself off as something it really isn't. Just be honest.

If you like Gents Scents, have you actually watched the videos where he announced these fragrances? He does give credit to the perfumers he worked with on these scents.

Correct, he does, but he's also trying to indicate he's behind the scent as part of the creative process. I wish he wouldn't do that. It's embellishing on the reality a bit. I'm not saying he's an evil person for doing that but it's clearly not being candid.

You're not accusing anyone of anything...but you're continuing to say this is a grift. Ok dude. Calling it a "grift" is pretty accusatory. Again, have you actually watched the video where he announced the fragrances? He makes it very clear that the point with these fragrances is to be mass appealing and NOT to be artistic. Here, I'll even timestamp it for you.

"Now to be fair and completely straightforward, Blue Ridge was not made for somebody who is hardcore into ultra artistic fragrances or anything. That is not at all what I was going for with this one. I was going for maximum wearability, maximum compliment factor, versatility, the kind of scent that somebody could make an absolute staple out of their wardrobe. That's what I was going for."

Where is the insincerity?

That he's marketing someone else's scent and putting his name on it when it's not his? I just don't personally think it's being honest. I can have that opinion that this is about making money and not really about the fragrance.

Is it another thing, though? It's all just a grift, they're all just trying to make money. So none of it is sincere, right?

It's plausible that Gent Scents actually enjoys the fragrance and feels good about putting his marketing name behind it. That's certainly plausible and I'll grant you that.

And again, I'm not singling out Gent Scents. ALL the youtube fragrance channels have done the same thing. They are marketing and getting a cut off their promotions. That's what this amounts to. And I'm okay with that, but I will call out when something is portrayed in marketing as something other than what it is. Again, it's not illegal, and it's an opinion on whether it is a good or bad practice. It's my opinion that when you market something with your name on it and try to imply you helped make it, it's a bit dishonest if that's not actually true. And this has been something done by every fragrance channel from Jeremy Fragrance to Gent Scents to Mr Smelly to Redolessence. It's common practice now. Don't take my criticism to heart man. It's just my opinion and observation. They treat it like a business and that's fine, but just know the reality.

And if Gent Scents is reading this, I don't hate you man. You have a good channel. You're a good content creator. I just have that one critique for the youtuber frag influencers as a whole.

 

[Red Hawk]

Thank you. That's all I was saying. There is nothing nefarious about this, so don't mistake what I was saying is a crime or anything. But this was about a collaboration to make money - first. Unless there is more information than what is on the surface. I'm willing to admit I'm wrong if there are facts other than what is available.

If that's all you're saying, and you grant that further submissions were created based on Ashton's feedback, then isn't it fair to say that Ashton acted as creative director in creating the final submissions that were released as the fragrances? That he was involved in the creative process?

No, I don't know anything about the fragrances. But I know 'of' how ALL the youtubers have gone about getting "their" fragrances made for them. It's all the same. It's a business venture and that's how they all approached it on the private end, but on the marketing they pass it off as being a completely "artistic endeavor for my channel's fans". And it's not. It would be refreshing if these influencers would just be honest. They want to make money on their channel and this is another way they are going about doing it. If they really are about the 'art', they would hand-select a perfumer and a fragrance, then promote it and let everyone know that it's a promotion and they are marketing it. Don't pretend that it's anything else and give full credit to the perfumer always. That's my only criticism in this entire thread. I have nothing against the influencers except the marketing front that is passing itself off as something it really isn't. Just be honest.

And nothing about how Ashton has presented his involvement with Michael Malul in making these fragrances has been dishonest.

Correct, he does, but he's also trying to indicate he's behind the scent as part of the creative process. I wish he wouldn't do that. It's embellishing on the reality a bit. I'm not saying he's an evil person for doing that but it's clearly not being candid.

He was, in fact, part of the creative process. You're kind of just talking out of your butt to say that he wasn't.

That he's marketing someone else's scent and putting his name on it when it's not his? I just don't personally think it's being honest. I can have that opinion that this is about making money and not really about the fragrance.

So are you denying that each final fragrance was created in response to Ashton's feedback on submissions, or not?

It's plausible that Gent Scents actually enjoys the fragrance and feels good about putting his marketing name behind it. That's certainly plausible and I'll grant you that.

And again, I'm not singling out Gent Scents. ALL the youtube fragrance channels have done the same thing. They are marketing and getting a cut off their promotions. That's what this amounts to. And I'm okay with that, but I will call out when something is portrayed in marketing as something other than what it is. Again, it's not illegal, and it's an opinion on whether it is a good or bad practice. It's my opinion that when you market something with your name on it and try to imply you helped make it, it's a bit dishonest if that's not actually true. And this has been something done by every fragrance channel from Jeremy Fragrance to Gent Scents to Mr Smelly to Redolessence. It's common practice now. Don't take my criticism to heart man. It's just my opinion and observation. They treat it like a business and that's fine, but just know the reality.

And if Gent Scents is reading this, I don't hate you man. You're have a good channel. You're a good content creator. I just have that one critique for the youtuber frag influencers as a whole.

So this whole thing is a knee jerk reaction with a lot of assumptions by association that have no basis in evidence and reality. You know what they say about when you assume...

 

[Redneck Perfumisto]

People say that's how they made Paco Rabanne Phantom, and it smells true.

It is, except actual perfumers modified the AI results to make it wearable, so it wasn't 100% skynet fragrance.

I may be one of the few BN owners of that one. 🤖 I do like the smell of the "AI-selected component", which was apparently the actual deal there (I have no certainty how that worked - just guesses). Of course, I love AI humor, too, so there is that. 😜 And my wife thought the bottle was super-cute, and really pushed me to buy it. 🤣

 

[tspencer]

If that's all you're saying, and you grant that further submissions were created based on Ashton's feedback, then isn't it fair to say that Ashton acted as creative director in creating the final submissions that were released as the fragrances? That he was involved in the creative process?



And nothing about how Ashton has presented his involvement with Michael Malul in making these fragrances has been dishonest.



He was, in fact, part of the creative process. You're kind of just talking out of your butt to say that he wasn't.



So are you denying that each final fragrance was created in response to Ashton's feedback on submissions, or not?



So this whole thing is a knee jerk reaction with a lot of assumptions by association that have no basis in evidence and reality. You know what they say about when you assume...

It's my opinion based on obvious information. I'm not assuming much other that it's a business venture more than an artistic adventure. That's what the influencers on youtube do. I don't think I'm wrong. But I think you're making a big deal out of what I said because you want to defend an influencer you are a fan of. Cool. But keep it real. Once they enter into deals they are no longer "enthusiasts talking about their favorite fragrances", they become "marketing advertisers". There's nothing wrong with that, but you're still acting like that's not what's happening when it actually is.

 

[Red Hawk]

It's my opinion based on obvious information. I'm not assuming much other that it's a business venture more than an artistic adventure. That's what the influencers on youtube do. I don't think I'm wrong. But I think you're making a big deal out of what I said because you want to defend an influencer you are a fan of. Cool. But keep it real. Once they enter into deals they are no longer "enthusiasts talking about their favorite fragrances", they become "marketing advertisers". There's nothing wrong with that, but you're still acting like that's not what's happening when it actually is.

A lot of what you're claiming is "obvious information" is just straight up misinformation. No one is saying this isn't a business venture. But that business venture involved him acting as creative director on these fragrances. Denying that and calling it a "grift" is rather insulting. You're essentially telling me, as someone who purchased these fragrances, that I fell for a grift, and I'm not "keeping it real" if I don't acknowledge that. Kindly take that attitude and never bother me with it again.

 

[Redneck Perfumisto]

By the way, here is the video where Ashton talks about working with the company behind Galleria/Navitus. Not the best experience for him, it would seem.

Fantastic video! 💚

This really explains what is going on with industry engagement of the YouTube fragrance community. In many ways this is an alternative to celebrity engagement, with its own rules that leverage the advantages of a perfume-savvy and web-savvy partner. Absolutely fascinating!

 

[Redneck Perfumisto]

... to decide whether to engage a perfumer or just to pull out a formula from the company’s archives and adjust it slightly with laboratory assistants. After all, in that case they don’t need to pay to the perfumer sales bonuses.
...

This strikes me as similar to contracted I.T. services where there is probably an off-the-internal-shelf contractor solution to the new prospective client's "unique" problem, which may only need slight tweaks, instead of reinventing the wheel.

Also similar to what Ashton reported about Navitus recycling his rejected brief candidates to other YouTubers. This is a common industry behavior. Why let a potentially great fragrance die in a filing cabinet? I get it. But gotta be on the up and up about things, IMO. There are honest ways to recycle quality rejects.

 

[tspencer]

A lot of what you're claiming is "obvious information" is just straight up misinformation. No one is saying this isn't a business venture. But that business venture involved him acting as creative director on these fragrances. Denying that and calling it a "grift" is rather insulting. You're essentially telling me, as someone who purchased these fragrances, that I fell for a grift, and I'm not "keeping it real" if I don't acknowledge that. Kindly take that attitude and never bother me with it again.

The fact that he's a fragrance marketer and no longer just an enthusiast talking about fragrances? How is that misinformation? That is my core point here.

 

[Varanis Ridari]

I may be one of the few BN owners of that one. 🤖 I do like the smell of the "AI-selected component", which was apparently the actual deal there (I have no certainty how that worked - just guesses). Of course, I love AI humor, too, so there is that. 😜 And my wife thought the bottle was super-cute, and really pushed me to buy it. 🤣

I actually like it too, and I believe the AI component was fed information based on a study where hundreds of volunteers smelled smelled thousands of various unlabeled odorants and it was determined what men and women separately were most attracted to in a smell.

The AI then took the top crop of those study findings and combined them algorithmically. The perfumers then had to shape, tweak, and add to that accord in order to form complete perfumes for him and her. Alberto Morillas was one of those perfumers.

 

[Red Hawk]

The fact that he's a fragrance marketer and no longer just an enthusiast talking about fragrances? How is that misinformation? That is my core point here.

Downplaying him as nothing more than a "fragrance marketer" and basically denying that he worked as creative director on these fragrances is misinformation. If that's your core point, your core point is dishonest.

I actually like it too, and I believe the AI component was fed information based on a study where hundreds of volunteers smelled smelled thousands of various unlabeled odorants and it was determined what men and women separately were most attracted to in a smell.

The AI then took the top crop of those study findings and combined them algorithmically. The perfumers then had to shape, tweak, and add to that accord in order to form complete perfumes for him and her. Alberto Morillas was one of those perfumers.

You know, all this talk about PR Phantom being basically made by a computer is actually making me want to check it out. Not as a matter of art, but of science. 😂

 

[Varanis Ridari]

Downplaying him as nothing more than a "fragrance marketer" and basically denying that he worked as creative director on these fragrances is misinformation. If that's your core point, your core point is dishonest.



You know, all this talk about PR Phantom being basically made by a computer is actually making me want to check it out. Not as a matter of art, but of science. 😂

You should. At least, it took more effort than choosing a rejected mod from another brand and tweaking it to use more-expensive versions of whatever materials the formula called for, then slapping a label on it. That's is how Creed made their fortune. 🙃

 

[gerbick]

I may be one of the few BN owners of that one. 🤖 I do like the smell of the "AI-selected component", which was apparently the actual deal there (I have no certainty how that worked - just guesses). Of course, I love AI humor, too, so there is that. 😜 And my wife thought the bottle was super-cute, and really pushed me to buy it. 🤣

Okay, here's where I have to admit that I actually like Phantom; however, I just cannot buy it due to the bottle. Might buy a refill and fill an atomizer to avoid the goofiness of that bottle. But the scent itself has a place in my collection.

 

[Redneck Perfumisto]

I actually like it too, and I believe the AI component was fed information based on a study where hundreds of volunteers smelled smelled thousands of various unlabeled odorants and it was determined what men and women separately were most attracted to in a smell.

The AI then took the top crop of those study findings and combined them algorithmically. The perfumers then had to shape, tweak, and add to that accord in order to form complete perfumes for him and her. Alberto Morillas was one of those perfumers.

Very interesting! I am going to sniff the women's scent, Fame, when it comes out, too!

https://www.fragrantica.com/news/Prelaunch-Fame-Paco-Rabanne-16719.html

 

[Red Hawk]

Very interesting! I am going to sniff the women's scent, Fame, when it comes out, too!

https://www.fragrantica.com/news/Prelaunch-Fame-Paco-Rabanne-16719.html

Paco Rabanne really does know how to make an...ostentatious bottle, don't they?

 

[Redneck Perfumisto]

Okay, here's where I have to admit that I actually like Phantom; however, I just cannot buy it due to the bottle. Might buy a refill and fill an atomizer to avoid the goofiness of that bottle. But the scent itself has a place in my collection.

I got the gift set with the pump spray deodorant, and that is very enjoyable, too - and feels refreshingly NORMAL when I spray!

 

[Redneck Perfumisto]

Paco Rabanne really does know how to make an...ostentatious bottle, don't they?

I'm pre-cringing their next bottle already! 😬