Let's talk about musks

[thesacredsaguaro]

It’s interesting. Musk was a perfume ingredient that was used for thousands of years up until the late 1800s when they stumbled on the ability to synthesize organic compounds. That, along with price and availability…then ultimately the Musk Deer was listed as endangered, caused mostly all perfume to contain synthetic musks. I think it was around this time that everyone was throwing “musk” on the bottles to make sales. Over time it became a very common theme and synthetic musks were all that was left, with all sorts of variations of notes and accords trying to approximate the natural scent of the deer musk. Now, there are still a small handful of excellent noses using real deer musk.

The same thing happened with oud. Although you can occasionally find a ”high end” perfume special release with real oud…it’s usually of the lowest quality and is in such a small amount you wouldn’t know it’s there.

Anyway, my first experience with Musk was Tigerlust by Ensar Oud. The effect the Musk had on my brain when I got that first whiff was incredible. I’ll never forget it. After that, I was hooked. Oud came shortly after.

Favorites off the top of my head:
Tigerlust - Ensar
Siberian Musk - ALD
Musk Lave - ALD
War & Peace II - ALD

You’re a little off on the history of musk use in western perfumery. Musk use has almost always been exclusively a result of advancements in chemistry which allowed for these molecules to be isolated and or synthesized. Civet and castoreum have been used extensively in their raw, natural form however ambergris was also widely used as well. Deer musk was rarely used in older perfumes because it really didn’t need to be as they already had the proper molecules available that are still readily available today. The lack of deer musk wasn’t a result of the deer becoming endangered though.

Eastern perfumery has always used deer musk as a standard but the east/west paradigm didn’t really exist when western perfumery really formed in the late 19th century/early 20th century. At least not in the way it did today.

There are many, many great musk perfumes that don’t contain deer musk. Ensar’s deer musk propaganda is great for selling Ensar products but in the rest of the perfume world, including Areej Le Dore, synthetic musk molecules are not only necessary but also enjoyable as musks provide so many useful enhancements to fragrances.

The idea of ethics doesn’t really apply because everyone’s ethics are different and I wouldn’t want to comment on that either but it’s misleading to say perfumers stopped using deer musk once the deer became endangered. That just isn’t true which is what my entire point is for this ramble lol. Okay off my soap box now.

 

[Dothraki]

You’re a little off on the history of musk use in western perfumery. Musk use has almost always been exclusively a result of advancements in chemistry which allowed for these molecules to be isolated and or synthesized. Civet and castoreum have been used extensively in their raw, natural form however ambergris was also widely used as well. Deer musk was rarely used in older perfumes because it really didn’t need to be as they already had the proper molecules available that are still readily available today. The lack of deer musk wasn’t a result of the deer becoming endangered though.

Eastern perfumery has always used deer musk as a standard but the east/west paradigm didn’t really exist when western perfumery really formed in the late 19th century/early 20th century. At least not in the way it did today.

There are many, many great musk perfumes that don’t contain deer musk. Ensar’s deer musk propaganda is great for selling Ensar products but in the rest of the perfume world, including Areej Le Dore, synthetic musk molecules are not only necessary but also enjoyable as musks provide so many useful enhancements to fragrances.

The idea of ethics doesn’t really apply because everyone’s ethics are different and I wouldn’t want to comment on that either but it’s misleading to say perfumers stopped using deer musk once the deer became endangered. That just isn’t true which is what my entire point is for this ramble lol. Okay off my soap box now.

Who said anything about ethics? It’s a law, thats not ethics thats a forced decision from big brother. Nothing I said was untrue look it up. Documented uses of deer musk date back 1500 years ago in the western world. Much older in the east I’m sure (such as ancient Egypt). Musk use dates back thousands of years, synthetic musk is what was used extensively after molecular science, we did not have that until the late 1800’s.

Not sure why you are arguing something that is recorded and documented in history lol.

 

[thesacredsaguaro]

Who said anything about ethics? It’s a law, thats not ethics thats a forced decision from big brother. Nothing I said was untrue look it up. Documented uses of deer musk date back 1500 years ago in the western world. Much older in the east I’m sure (such as ancient Egypt). Musk use dates back thousands of years, synthetic musk is what was used extensively after molecular science, we did not have that until the late 1800’s.

Not sure why you are arguing something that is recorded and documented in history lol.

Well for starters I made the distinction that western perfumery never widely used deer musk even in its early infancy in the late 1800’s which is important here to note. I’m not arguing anything but rather supplying some facts to the discussion. Deer Musk has obviously been used in eastern perfumery but it was never a staple in western perfumes nor was the exclusion a result of the deers becoming endangered. That is all.

 

[Dothraki]

Well for starters I made the distinction that western perfumery never widely used deer musk even in its early infancy in the late 1800’s which is important here to note. I’m not arguing anything but rather supplying some facts to the discussion. Deer Musk has obviously been used in eastern perfumery but it was never a staple in western perfumes nor was the exclusion a result of the deers becoming endangered. That is all.

It definitely was a staple.. Galimard of France was using it in the 18th century, where do you think they got the idea? It was from the Eastern civilizations who were bringing it over on ships to trade. It’s not like Chanel and Guerlain were like “hey lets make a synthetic version of a random deer sack and put it in perfume” … it was a very well known important part of perfumery as a fantastic fixative that lended it’s own nuances, like civet and all the others. And yes, civet was used for quite some time and stopped by many as they deemed it “inhumane“ and no company wants PETA throwing pigs blood on their customers. Plus synthetics are cheaper, and since the modern western world never had a deep history with musk (aka: the general consumer population) or perfume in general for the US, they were none the wiser and only know musk as a word, usually denoting some sort of synthetic take on the idea of deer musk usually, but also civet etc. It’s the same with oud…(all) perfume on the store shelves and in boutiques that say oud on them are using synthetic oud. I bracketed (all) because theres usually a special perfume release that costs thousands of dollars with real oud in it. Usually a lower quality cheap oud, and usually not much is used in the mix. They have to maximize profits.

You mentioned Ensar and ALD…they do use real musk. They also use synthetics in small doses. The difference is, the synthetics are usually not detectable and if they are, they are not a prominent scent (except for ALD 7th collection), so there is a huge difference between them and say, Chanel or Armani who use all synthetics. It’s a shame because imagine what some of those perfumers might do with real ingredients. Anyway I’ll get off my soap box too… interesting subject though as it applies to everything today, like a bag of fresh spinach that says “gluten free” really big on the front hahaha. Or they feed pesticides through the soil and label it “organic” lol.

 

[thesacredsaguaro]

It definitely was a staple.. Galimard of France was using it in the 18th century, where do you think they got the idea? It was from the Eastern civilizations who were bringing it over on ships to trade. It’s not like Chanel and Guerlain were like “hey lets make a synthetic version of a random deer sack and put it in perfume” … it was a very well known important part of perfumery as a fantastic fixative that lended it’s own nuances, like civet and all the others. And yes, civet was used for quite some time and stopped by many as they deemed it “inhumane“ and no company wants PETA throwing pigs blood on their customers. Plus synthetics are cheaper, and since the modern western world never had a deep history with musk (aka: the general consumer population) or perfume in general for the US, they were none the wiser and only know musk as a word, usually denoting some sort of synthetic take on the idea of deer musk usually, but also civet etc. It’s the same with oud…(all) perfume on the store shelves and in boutiques that say oud on them are using synthetic oud. I bracketed (all) because theres usually a special perfume release that costs thousands of dollars with real oud in it. Usually a lower quality cheap oud, and usually not much is used in the mix. They have to maximize profits.

You mentioned Ensar and ALD…they do use real musk. They also use synthetics in small doses. The difference is, the synthetics are usually not detectable and if they are, they are not a prominent scent (except for ALD 7th collection), so there is a huge difference between them and say, Chanel or Armani who use all synthetics. It’s a shame because imagine what some of those perfumers might do with real ingredients. Anyway I’ll get off my soap box too… interesting subject though as it applies to everything today, like a bag of fresh spinach that says “gluten free” really big on the front hahaha. Or they feed pesticides through the soil and label it “organic” lol.

Look I’m not trying to be antagonistic but Deer musk wasn’t used in ANY Guerlain perfumes to the best of my knowledge. I’m curious if you could list some examples of deer musk used in western perfumery at anytime in the late 1800’s or early 1900’s. Heck even up until the 60’s for that matter. I’m genuinely curious because in all my research it just didn’t happen and if it did it was in such minuscule amounts that you definitely wouldn’t be able to smell it. I’m always open for learning though and I’d love to know which fragrances were created using deer musk in the base.

 

[cheapimitation]

I'm probably in the minority here, but I really don't like animalic musk or anything trying to replicate animalic smells.

But I do love synthetic musks or floral musk as long as it doesn't veer to far into something generic or harsh. There are so many different kinds of effects in this category. It is really hard to define exactly what makes something "musky" but two features that come to mind are that it's abstract, creates a textural sensation, and forms the base of a perfume. It can be warm and skin like or cold and metallic, powdery, cloud like, or create an abstract aura of scent.

Some of my favorites:
Chanel 1957
Chanel No. 18
Frederic Malle Cologne Indelible
Frederic Malle Dans Tes Bras
Frederic Malle Uncut Gem
Frederic Malle Une Fleur de Cassie
Byredo M/Mink
Le Labo Gaiac 10
MFK Acqua Universalis
Hermes Cardamusc
Les Indemodables Musc de Sable

 

[Dothraki]

Look I’m not trying to be antagonistic but Deer musk wasn’t used in ANY Guerlain perfumes to the best of my knowledge. I’m curious if you could list some examples of deer musk used in western perfumery at anytime in the late 1800’s or early 1900’s. Heck even up until the 60’s for that matter. I’m genuinely curious because in all my research it just didn’t happen and if it did it was in such minuscule amounts that you definitely wouldn’t be able to smell it. I’m always open for learning though and I’d love to know which fragrances were created using deer musk in the base.

Late 1800’s and early 1900s was the synthetic boom and in that time flowers were the big thing for perfume, so if they used it it probably wasn’t an advertised thing… but during the Renaissance western europe was booming with musk trade and used in perfume.

If you mean in the Americas, we didn’t jump on board until it was all synthesized.. unfortunately we don’t have any reliable history for the US since raiders came here and murdered everyone in the 1600s.

 

[thesacredsaguaro]

Late 1800’s and early 1900s was the synthetic boom and in that time flowers were the big thing for perfume, so if they used it it probably wasn’t an advertised thing… but during the Renaissance western europe was booming with musk trade and used in perfume.

If you mean in the Americas, we didn’t jump on board until it was all synthesized.. unfortunately we don’t have any reliable history for the US since raiders came here and murdered everyone in the 1600s.

I really wouldn’t call what the Royal court was doing in the 18th century as “perfumery” at least not as we know it today. It’s was extremely crude and not really centered around what we’d call modern perfumery so I don’t really consider royals walking around with rose water and civet paste to be indicative of modern perfumery or of musk use in modern perfumes.

 

[Dorje123]

Well, "The Art of Perfumery" by George William Septimus Piesse (1857) has some info on Deer Musk.

https://www.amazon.com/Art-Perfumery-Unabridged-Septimus-Piesse/dp/1929148755

It says Russian musk is the lowest quality, in contrast to the folks using it today and often claiming it's the best. I think it depends on what you're after, the better quality musk seems LESS animalic to me, and more gauzy, more ethereal, and adds less of it's own character while having a better pure musk effect.

The thought deer musk wasn't used as @thesacredsaguaro describes is historically inaccurate as far as I can tell. However, it was out of style at that time, but George says most everyone prefers musk if they don't know it's used.

I'm not claiming to be any sort of expert on what vintage perfumes used real deer musk, I have no idea on that one, if anyone knows for certain I'd be interested to hear. I find it very difficult to believe Guerlain never used deer musk, claims like that require the presentation of proof, and if that can't be provided, it's likely fantasy.

 

[thesacredsaguaro]

Well, "The Art of Perfumery" by George William Septimus Piesse (1857) has some info on Deer Musk.

https://www.amazon.com/Art-Perfumery-Unabridged-Septimus-Piesse/dp/1929148755

It says Russian musk is the lowest quality, in contrast to the folks using it today and often claiming it's the best. I think it depends on what you're after, the better quality musk seems LESS animalic to me, and more gauzy, more ethereal, and adds less of it's own character while having a better pure musk effect.

The thought deer musk wasn't used as @thesacredsaguaro describes is historically inaccurate as far as I can tell. However, it was out of style at that time, but George says most everyone prefers musk if they don't know it's used.

I'm not claiming to be any sort of expert on what vintage perfumes used real deer musk, I have no idea on that one, if anyone knows for certain I'd be interested to hear. I find it very difficult to believe Guerlain never used deer musk, claims like that require the presentation of proof, and if that can't be provided, it's likely fantasy.

Well from the formulas that have been presented for a lot of classical perfumes none of them contained deer musk but they did contain Muscone. I’m specifically referencing the advent of modern perfumery as we know it which is what my statements are pertaining to. Modern perfumery. I doubt there’s very many modern perfumes created in the late 1880’s and early 1900’s that contained deer musk and if they did it was a negligible amount.

I don’t think that’s a fantasy. Especially with how prevalent civet and castoreum are in that time period

https://basenotes.com/threads/vintage-musk-usage-and-odor-and-jicky.406598/

 

[GWM]

Well, "The Art of Perfumery" by George William Septimus Piesse (1857) has some info on Deer Musk.

https://www.amazon.com/Art-Perfumery-Unabridged-Septimus-Piesse/dp/1929148755

It says Russian musk is the lowest quality, in contrast to the folks using it today and often claiming it's the best. I think it depends on what you're after, the better quality musk seems LESS animalic to me, and more gauzy, more ethereal, and adds less of it's own character while having a better pure musk effect.

The thought deer musk wasn't used as @thesacredsaguaro describes is historically inaccurate as far as I can tell. However, it was out of style at that time, but George says most everyone prefers musk if they don't know it's used.

I'm not claiming to be any sort of expert on what vintage perfumes used real deer musk, I have no idea on that one, if anyone knows for certain I'd be interested to hear. I find it very difficult to believe Guerlain never used deer musk, claims like that require the presentation of proof, and if that can't be provided, it's likely fantasy.

You hit the nail on the head with that crap "sibermusk" shit that people buy. I have a small amount of real deer musk, and it is nothing like cat piss or whatever those people are smelling in their "musk pods". It's deep and earthy, and yes animal, but more of a dark grounded note like what oakmoss provides. It's beautiful and can be enjoyed alone.

 

[Dothraki]

Well from the formulas that have been presented for a lot of classical perfumes none of them contained deer musk but they did contain Muscone. I’m specifically referencing the advent of modern perfumery as we know it which is what my statements are pertaining to. Modern perfumery. I doubt there’s very many modern perfumes created in the late 1880’s and early 1900’s that contained deer musk and if they did it was a negligible amount.

I don’t think that’s a fantasy. Especially with how prevalent civet and castoreum are in that time period

https://basenotes.com/threads/vintage-musk-usage-and-odor-and-jicky.406598/

You’d be surprised at the recipes of some perfumes created thousands of years ago in ancient Egypt…and how they made them. All perfume is “modern perfumery“ during it’s time. If anything, the western civilization bastardized perfumery just like everything else in the name of making massive amounts of profit. As a company does. But every ingredient in your perfume (when synthesized) is just a manmade copy of the natural counterpart. Hence “Musk” as a known household name in perfume, but none of them have any musk in them, at least anymore. Guerlain would never use real deer musk in a re-release classic. It would be too damaging to their company and too expensive to make large enough profits.

So it depends on your definition of modern perfumery, if you mean “synthetic perfumery” then correct, there is no musk used in anything with a name brand on it today. But there WILL be bottles with the name Musk printed on them, because back in the day people knew if it had musk in it, it was the good stuff. Same with Oud for the most part (using the name oud). Hell, most perfumes don’t have any actual ingredients in them other than chemicals anymore which smell very different in most cases like sandalwood, rose, vetiver, oakmoss, orris, etc. etc.

 

[Dothraki]

Check this quick breakdown out…I’ll include the link

Few ancient facts
4500 BC- The first writings about fragrant ingredients date back to China in 4500 BC, so it is possible the perfume history goes back farther.
4000BC - 43,000 Sq ft big ancient factory is found in today's Cyprus. This was used to extract oils in 4000BC. But we can’t be sure if it was medicinal usage or for fragrances.
3000 BC - A distillation vessel from 3000BC, found at Harappa, a key city in ancient Indus Valley Civilisation
2000 BC - First recorded chemist, “Ms Tapputi” from Mesopotamia lived in 2000 BC
1332 BC - King Tutankhamun was buried with jars of Frankincence and Blue Lotus over his grave
890 BC - Earliest written record, a book named “Perfume: combined ingredients” is from 890BC. Armenian kings presented King Tukulti Ninurta (Mesopotamia) this valuable gift.

Origin & evolution of perfume, didn't happen at a particular location. It didn't happen in a particular era. Perfumes evolved because of cumulative interest of humanity to entertain all their senses, particularly sense of smell and taste.

Here’s a cool read about some of the ancient recipes and some list instructions too.

https://www.scentopia-singapore.com/ancient-perfume-recipe.html

I thought it was pretty fascinating.

 

[thesacredsaguaro]

You’d be surprised at the recipes of some perfumes created thousands of years ago in ancient Egypt…and how they made them. All perfume is “modern perfumery“ during it’s time. If anything, the western civilization bastardized perfumery just like everything else in the name of making massive amounts of profit. As a company does. But every ingredient in your perfume (when synthesized) is just a manmade copy of the natural counterpart. Hence “Musk” as a known household name in perfume, but none of them have any musk in them, at least anymore. Guerlain would never use real deer musk in a re-release classic. It would be too damaging to their company and too expensive to make large enough profits.

So it depends on your definition of modern perfumery, if you mean “synthetic perfumery” then correct, there is no musk used in anything with a name brand on it today. But there WILL be bottles with the name Musk printed on them, because back in the day people knew if it had musk in it, it was the good stuff. Same with Oud for the most part (using the name oud). Hell, most perfumes don’t have any actual ingredients in them other than chemicals anymore which smell very different in most cases like sandalwood, rose, vetiver, oakmoss, orris, etc. etc.

Okay now you’ve officially lost me. I think we’re having two different conversations haha. Good talking though I appreciate the convo.

 

[Dothraki]

Okay now you’ve officially lost me. I think we’re having two different conversations haha. Good talking though I appreciate the convo.

🤦‍♂️

 

[alice_ok_]

Hi. So this might not be the right thread for this question but I don’t know where else.
I have mixed many shower gels and fragrances together and at first the only scent I could smell was flat sweetness with no depth at all.
So I put some musk perfume in there that I hadn’t used because it was too intense.
Bad mistake.
I feel like now whatever I try nothing neutralises the musk scent.
I’ve put in fragrance free shower gel and a lot of different kinds of fruity scents, but nope.
So if anyone has a potent scent type to combat musk, I would be eternally grateful.
I thought citrus was the “true” opposite scent but really it hasn’t worked.
I have made too much of this own mixture of shower gel now to just throw it all away…

 

[GWM]

Hi. So this might not be the right thread for this question but I don’t know where else.
I have mixed many shower gels and fragrances together and at first the only scent I could smell was flat sweetness with no depth at all.
So I put some musk perfume in there that I hadn’t used because it was too intense.
Bad mistake.
I feel like now whatever I try nothing neutralises the musk scent.
I’ve put in fragrance free shower gel and a lot of different kinds of fruity scents, but nope.
So if anyone has a potent scent type to combat musk, I would be eternally grateful.
I thought citrus was the “true” opposite scent but really it hasn’t worked.
I have made too much of this own mixture of shower gel now to just throw it all away…

Lol your best bet is to throw it away. If you're cooking spaghetti and you found it bland, so you threw in orange juice, but wait that messed up the taste so let me throw a bunch of soy sauce, no wait now let's add a big dump of tomato paste.... you're not going to find a magical ingredient that makes your pasta taste good, and you're not going to save that mess you've made.

I realize there's some people here who claim to add stuff to their perfume and then get a stronger more projecting perfume, but I generally wouldn't advise one to alter your fragrance.

 

[GWM]

You’d be surprised at the recipes of some perfumes created thousands of years ago in ancient Egypt…and how they made them. All perfume is “modern perfumery“ during it’s time. If anything, the western civilization bastardized perfumery just like everything else in the name of making massive amounts of profit. As a company does. But every ingredient in your perfume (when synthesized) is just a manmade copy of the natural counterpart. Hence “Musk” as a known household name in perfume, but none of them have any musk in them, at least anymore. Guerlain would never use real deer musk in a re-release classic. It would be too damaging to their company and too expensive to make large enough profits.

So it depends on your definition of modern perfumery, if you mean “synthetic perfumery” then correct, there is no musk used in anything with a name brand on it today. But there WILL be bottles with the name Musk printed on them, because back in the day people knew if it had musk in it, it was the good stuff. Same with Oud for the most part (using the name oud). Hell, most perfumes don’t have any actual ingredients in them other than chemicals anymore which smell very different in most cases like sandalwood, rose, vetiver, oakmoss, orris, etc. etc.

Are you under the impression that natural essential oils, resins, absolutes, etc., are different than just chemicals?

 

[lfc1892]

RM5 is a musk I love. Nuclear stuff though so easy on the trigger. Bianchi’s under my skin is great as mentioned above.

 

[alice_ok_]

Lol your best bet is to throw it away. If you're cooking spaghetti and you found it bland, so you threw in orange juice, but wait that messed up the taste so let me throw a bunch of soy sauce, no wait now let's add a big dump of tomato paste.... you're not going to find a magical ingredient that makes your pasta taste good, and you're not going to save that mess you've made.

I realize there's some people here who claim to add stuff to their perfume and then get a stronger more projecting perfume, but I generally wouldn't advise one to alter your fragrance.

Hehe thanks for the honesty. I will throw it away.