Initial formula indications - experienced advis,

[LaFou]

Hello, as always, I hope that you are all doing well,

I started formulating at the beginning with limited number of materials, 3 materials different dilutions, 10 materials different dilutions, and so on, it was a slow process but needed non the less,
then, I started doing some formulas which was shared here or found at one of the books I own, even though it had lots of materials, I can’t really say that it’s my knowledge or gained Experience, because I just did something written, maybe gained a bit of understanding, but not the real experience of learning on my own the materials.

I write this now, contrary to all of my previous formulations understanding at the early stages, as I don’t consider that phase a learning phase by any standards, maybe only that it doesn’t work or count! Some examples, mixing accords and experimenting with few EO or AC, or taking a simple perfume formula and altering again again with different materials, I know some will say it’s experience, perhaps, but I found that it was counter productive, so i scratched this approach, and restarted all over, with more of an understanding of what not to do.

I did a lot of reading from books, and here on basenotes, and started experimenting again with 2 AC then 3, then 10 then 8 and so on, keep in mind I’m doing many of those in different materials,
things started to get a bit more clear.. strength of materials started to uncover opposite to other or when paired with other materials! So, still it will take some more time,

once I got comfortable with certain materials AC isolates naturals E.O bases (excluding accords) I was able to create good things within the margin of max 10 materials! And (Excluding perfume formulas I have)
I say excluding perfume formulas I have, because it’s easy to alter some certain materials for a perfume formula made by someone with certain similar materials to have a different scent, but for this is not learning!

within the margin of those 10 materials formulas, I was always Able to have an initial indication of the success of the end result, meaning smelling nice at the very start, and then after maturing becomes even better!

As I’m expanding my formulation with the additionAl number of materials, I went above 20, the initial indication of the formula is mildly pleasant or, weird so to say,
Now I know that those used materials should have gave something good, I know, because I worked with it hands on many times, and still, the smell is not indicating pleasant scent from the beginning, it is within the direction I was working with, but weird!

from the experience of the perfumers here, does this indicate a bad result, or is it due to the increase of materials it’s a normal thing?
will maturation greatly Increase the smell and scent?

I wrote lot of things, just in attempt to make the picture as clear as where I am on this matter!

Apologies if it seems long, bare with me and look forward to your insights and advise.

thank you

 

[jfrater]

It's really just a time thing. Initially we can tend to make a lot of muddy scents as we are learning the delicate balance of things. Trust your nose - if you think something seems off, try again. You'll learn more every time you restart.

 

[mnitabach]

The number of interactions between materials increases exponentially as you increase the number of materials. This is why it is vastly easier to get a reasonably balanced composition with 10 materials than with 20. It just takes tons of practice & hard-won experience...

ETA: IMO & IME, a better way to start building such experience is to use one of your well-performing ten-line formulas as a starting point, and then add one new ingredient at a time to see what they do to the composition. Going directly from ten to twenty lines, you have no way to know what is doing what...

 

[downmemorylane]

I'll second Jamie, also eventually an epiphany will show, and you'll have this aha experience... But it's time and insight as well as knowledge, that plays a big part.

Keep the spirit up 💫✨

 

[jfrater]

Also just wanted to add: if you think you have something wonderful with 10 chemicals: stop. Perfumes don't have to be 20 or 30 or more materials.

 

[mnitabach]

Also just wanted to add: if you think you have something wonderful with 10 chemicals: stop. Perfumes don't have to be 20 or 30 or more materials.

This is sooo difficult for my personality. I always perceive a way in which it can be "better", yet further tinkering almost always makes it worse. But such "failed" experiments are, IMO & IME, as useful in learning materials and their interactions as "successful" ones, so long as the experiments are well designed: don't change five things simultaneously... 😹 😹 😹

 

[jfrater]

This is sooo difficult for my personality. I always perceive a way in which it can be "better", yet further tinkering almost always makes it worse. But such "failed" experiments are, IMO & IME, as useful in learning materials and their interactions as "successful" ones, so long as the experiments are well designed: don't change five things simultaneously... 😹 😹 😹

I have the same struggle you do! Virtually all my perfumes have ended up with 30 or 40 materials and then I do a massive edit and end up nearer to 20. In virtually every instance the edit is the final fragrance. My rose (not released yet) is 16 materials. My proudest cull

 

[LaFou]

It's really just a time thing. Initially we can tend to make a lot of muddy scents as we are learning the delicate balance of things. Trust your nose - if you think something seems off, try again. You'll learn more every time you restart.

yes indeed, restart here is the main point.. but in sense of approach, goes to say, there is no other way to learn only by understanding materials individually and in formulation!
loooong road ahead 😅

 

[LaFou]

The number of interactions between materials increases exponentially as you increase the number of materials. This is why it is vastly easier to get a reasonably balanced composition with 10 materials than with 20. It just takes tons of practice & hard-won experience...

ETA: IMO & IME, a better way to start building such experience is to use one of your well-performing ten-line formulas as a starting point, and then add one new ingredient at a time to see what they do to the composition. Going directly from ten to twenty lines, you have no way to know what is doing what...

Agreed, 100%, I believe, even though that I had a good grip on used materials, it does not mean I have an understanding on the increase reactions!

I’m writing this, because of my gained confidence from formulas I had or accords I used! Very bad to build on! It’s not actual learning experience!

I think all would agree on that.. a serious trap to avoid for beginners!

 

[LaFou]

I'll second Jamie, also eventually an epiphany will show, and you'll have this aha experience... But it's time and insight as well as knowledge, that plays a big part.

Keep the spirit up 💫✨

agreed, I’m raising my spirit again up 😅 I know I can do it!

my advice, if any new beginner reading this, avoid the trap of pre-made formulas and accords to build with and amend as experience!

for sure, you can try it, but is very tempting to make at the beginning and IME will definitely makes you skip learning the materials were possible.. not sure if I’m making sense

 

[LaFou]

Also just wanted to add: if you think you have something wonderful with 10 chemicals: stop. Perfumes don't have to be 20 or 30 or more materials.

Agreed, we can always work with what makes sense, if it’s 10 liners or 5 liners, I understand that!

I wasn’t increasing the materials just because I wanted to increase, i was doing so, because i thought each of the chosen materials would work together!
big mistake 😅 in terms of slowly and progressively learning to do so,

but everything is part of the process

 

[LaFou]

This is sooo difficult for my personality. I always perceive a way in which it can be "better", yet further tinkering almost always makes it worse. But such "failed" experiments are, IMO & IME, as useful in learning materials and their interactions as "successful" ones, so long as the experiments are well designed: don't change five things simultaneously... 😹 😹 😹

agreed, absolutely correct! Work it out slowly!

one thing to ask you here from your own experience,
if I had a strong and already matured 10 lines formula, and I wanted to increase 1 material To see how it would work, would I have to wait the maturation time too? Like additional 1 month
or I would be able to assess in 3 days or so!

i feel the answer is the full duration, but I want to lie to myself and say 3 days and someone agrees 🤣😅

 

[LaFou]

I have the same struggle you do! Virtually all my perfumes have ended up with 30 or 40 materials and then I do a massive edit and end up nearer to 20. In virtually every instance the edit is the final fragrance. My rose (not released yet) is 16 materials. My proudest cull

Amazing, and a good hands-on experience to take into consideration!
I think, sometimes numbers work!

what i will start to do, is decrease the size of trials into 3g instead of 10g

and then, make 20 variations each one, with one or two different additional materials, and wait for a month!
yea, each day or so, do another 20 versions with different materials, following the main theme in mind for sure! I think this is a good way to work with too!

I have to reconsider diluting materials again, 🤦‍♂️
perhaps, revisiting old threads as well, and taking notes of strengths of materials!

 

[mnitabach]

agreed, absolutely correct! Work it out slowly!

one thing to ask you here from your own experience,
if I had a strong and already matured 10 lines formula, and I wanted to increase 1 material To see how it would work, would I have to wait the maturation time too? Like additional 1 month
or I would be able to assess in 3 days or so!

i feel the answer is the full duration, but I want to lie to myself and say 3 days and someone agrees 🤣😅

For basic first-order combinatorial effects, I test immediately. For more subtle effects of chemical reactions in the concentrate and/or diluted perfume, of course you have to wait.

 

[LaFou]

For basic first-order combinatorial effects, I test immediately. For more subtle effects of chemical reactions in the concentrate and/or diluted perfume, of course you have to wait.

Yes thats the actual reality, but it’s good to assert it from asking experienced pros!

When I make small formulas, it shows from the start its success rate! And enhance in time after a month, plus it shows the sharpness of the scent after maturation and then coloring changes!

 

[downmemorylane]

agreed, absolutely correct! Work it out slowly!

one thing to ask you here from your own experience,
if I had a strong and already matured 10 lines formula, and I wanted to increase 1 material To see how it would work, would I have to wait the maturation time too? Like additional 1 month
or I would be able to assess in 3 days or so!

i feel the answer is the full duration, but I want to lie to myself and say 3 days and someone agrees 🤣😅

I can tell you what I do..

After composing a formular, that I think will fulfill my ideas and senses, I usually split it in half, and leave one alone and make modifications on the other.

I also sample test the initial batch for show proof, seeing if it matches what I want and then, comes the wait. This test is done as edp, edt, edc.

But for me, the initial tests will often tell me if I'm heading the right way. Then 2-3 months later the final result will proof me wrong or right.

This serves a purpose when splitting in two, so I can alter the other one in any direction I want and then matchvthe two and see if either need further improvements.

I also like to make accords and combine, making them even more complex. But that's not the end goal, for me simplicity is also an aim, if not the most important.

 

[LaFou]

I can tell you what I do..

After composing a formular, that I think will fulfill my ideas and senses, I usually split it in half, and leave one alone and make modifications on the other.

I also sample test the initial batch for show proof, seeing if it matches what I want and then, comes the wait. This test is done as edp, edt, edc.

But for me, the initial tests will often tell me if I'm heading the right way. Then 2-3 months later the final result will proof me wrong or right.

This serves a purpose when splitting in two, so I can alter the other one in any direction I want and then matchvthe two and see if either need further improvements.

I also like to make accords and combine, making them even more complex. But that's not the end goal, for me simplicity is also an aim, if not the most important.

That’s a great way too, but, you have experience with your materials, which can always be enhanced for sure!

my main problem is not the formulas, it’s the materials it self, I approached it wrong, I built on existing formulas or accords, which gave good results and false confidence experience for me!

when I went to try building a more complex formula, I was struck by failure!

but, I will add your approach too, perhaps by splitting into 2 each of the amended version! Yes you are right! A variation of a formula is a formula at the end! And I have to treat it this way! You are right! Thank you I might have skipped that in my attempts of several variations!
due noted 👍👍👍

 

[LaFou]

I will add, another tip here on the subject of materials and beginners,

is probably better if you (in this case me), or anyone beginning, is to build scents rather than formulas For perfume,

meaning, I want to create a good fruity scent of pair and lemon, ill work out how to do so with my materials (don’t cheat and use formulas or copy something) do it with what you have materials until you get it right

then, learn another scent, by enough time, perhaps you know how to create 100 scent, then, maybe here we start mixing scents!
again don’t cheat and search for existing formulas, otherwise you will never truly understand the materials!

maybe, steer away from complex materials at first, like C aldehydes, come back later once your more solid in knowledge

it’s not wrong to learn some basics from reading or famous accords, but those are general knowledge!

I don’t think I’m wrong here? Am I?

 

[mnitabach]

I will add, another tip here on the subject of materials and beginners,

is probably better if you (in this case me), or anyone beginning, is to build scents rather than formulas For perfume,

meaning, I want to create a good fruity scent of pair and lemon, ill work out how to do so with my materials (don’t cheat and use formulas or copy something) do it with what you have materials until you get it right

then, learn another scent, by enough time, perhaps you know how to create 100 scent, then, maybe here we start mixing scents!
again don’t cheat and search for existing formulas, otherwise you will never truly understand the materials!

maybe, steer away from complex materials at first, like C aldehydes, come back later once your more solid in knowledge

it’s not wrong to learn some basics from reading or famous accords, but those are general knowledge!

I don’t think I’m wrong here? Am I?

IMO & IME, it is foolish not to take advantage of prior knowledge embodied in publicly available formulas. The key to learning from existing formulas, however, again IME & IMO, is to deconstruct their inner mechanisms through careful organized variation.

 

[deroudist]

I agree with Mike. Working on something that is known to work (existing formulas) and then making changes to smell the outcome is some of the best ways of learning how this stuff works. Simple 8-Line-Formulas are the best way to feel how materials work in correlation to another. Strip one material away. Does it still work? Add something different. Does it still work? Reduce something by 50%. Is the result noticable? Of course that takes a lot of time, but the lessons will be rewarding for sure.