how many ingredients in commercial Rose bases?

[Zongo]

For good reason it's a secret what's in commercial bases, but is it allowed to know how many ingredients were used approx.? Like in Rose Wardia, Dorinia, etc.? Does some of you know? Like 10 or 20 or 30 or 40? Then I knew what number I have to surpass to make a more complex Rose than the commercial ones.

 

[ourmess]

You're focused on the wrong metric. If you want to make a rose base that's as good as any of the common commercial bases, then...just focus on making a great rose base. "Number of materials used" is completely meaningless compared to "smells good".

 

[Zongo]

Would like to know the number anways. And it is not meaningsless to me. I do know that a master can achieve more with a lower number than another person with a higher number, that is a common place. However, if a master uses 5 and a similar skilled master uses 20, who might have put more effort into his accord? who might thave the more complex accord? Numbers do tell something, even if it's just probabilities.

 

[ourmess]

However, if a master uses 5 and a similar skilled master uses 20, who might have put more effort into his accord?

Again, this is the wrong metric. The person with 5 materials may have invested years more work eliminating materials to get the best effect. Number of materials used literally means nothing at all in terms of the end product.

who might thave the more complex accord?

The one that smells more complex. You are not smelling "number of materials used".

Numbers do tell something

They really, really don't.

 

[RomanB]

30+

 

[Zongo]

Thanks, RomanB!

 

[Zongo]

@ourmess No? If numbers don't mean anything, how come that a natural Rose has about 350 substances, and that it's impossible to exactly copy that complexity with a base? Obviously because we can't use 350 subtances, or it would be too much effort at least.

 

[mnitabach]

Again, this is the wrong metric. The person with 5 materials may have invested years more work eliminating materials to get the best effect. Number of materials used literally means nothing at all in terms of the end product.

The one that smells more complex. You are not smelling "number of materials used".

They really, really don't.

💯💯💯

 

[Nkoflan]

I would argue that the smell of something has a strong correlation to what's in the thing.

 

[jfrater]

You're focused on the wrong metric. If you want to make a rose base that's as good as any of the common commercial bases, then...just focus on making a great rose base. "Number of materials used" is completely meaningless compared to "smells good".

This is the correct answer. Great perfumers of the past (and many of today) use single materials to represent a particular material. Rhodinol was the smell of a rose, and today ethyl maltol is the smell of candy floss, or caramel, or any number of marketing words. I manufacture and sell the greatest rose bases from history (as well as my own) but in my own perfume line sometimes I use only one or two chemicals (rose ketones for example) while in others I use overdoses of classical bases. The context is very important.

Depending on what else you use in your perfume, a drop of a rose ketone may make people swoon at the scent of the sweetest dewey rose, but in another perfume, the same chemical may make mouths water at the instant recognition of fresh baked apple pies. Context, not complexity, is what matters.

My final word, so as to not leave you feeling ignored, however, is to tell you that the classical rose bases typically range from 15 – 25 total materials.

 

[parker25mv]

A rose base is typically going to include the following:
Beta-damascone and/or possibly damascenone
Phenylethyl alcohol (PEA) (and in some cases phenylethyl acetate or some other phenylethyl- AC)
Citronellol
Geraniol (maybe in some rarer cases you might find gernanyl acetate or formate)
Phenoxanol (sometimes)
Rose oxide (found in small traces, adds the green tonality of rose)
maybe a little C-9 aldehyde, in some cases, to add a sparkling effect, diffusion, and a waxy rose petal feel
In some cases there might be some other "rose"-type AC in there, like Floramat or Rose acetate (an AC that was common in older fragrances)
There are also subtitutes to damascenone that have lower allergen potential, like Rosamusk, Firascone, Givescone, Givaudan's captive Pomarose, although all of these are inferior to smell.

There can also be farnesol, eugenol, hints of vanillin.
And typically most bases will add just a little bit of some musk to help "showcase" the fragrance.

So I would probably expect a "typical" rose base might contain around 14 ACs.
And that would probably be more like a minimum.

 

[perfumer86]

@ourmess No? If numbers don't mean anything, how come that a natural Rose has about 350 substances, and that it's impossible to exactly copy that complexity with a base? Obviously because we can't use 350 subtances, or it would be too much effort at least.

rose absolute for example has many aroma molecules, but the main constituent that provide the rose scent is PEA. PEA you can buy cheap as it can get.