Help dating Vintage Guerlain L'Heure Bleue with acid etched base

[Miss Marple]

Hello!
I'm a newbie and joined your forum in the holes of solving a mystery. I'm hoping someone can help me date this vintage bottle of L'Heure Bleue by Guerlain. It appears to be crystal but not marked Baccarat and I don't have the original box. It was purchased in the 1990's from an antique's dealer in Vancouver, BC. The base is acid etched and reads "Guerlain PARIS-FRANCE 20.C.C." The bottle stands 3.5" inches tall with the stopper.
Any idea if it's post or pre-1960's...?
As I looked through your site prior to posting but I didn't see any mention of this version (showing the same etched base).

 

[saminlondon]

Does the stopper have a plastic sleeve? That would date it to the late 1960s or later.

If not, and the stopper is ground glass, it's tricky to date precisely without anything else to go on. My hunch, though (and it's just that), is that the 20ml size was phased out some time in the 60s or 70s,

 

[PStoller]

The 20ml was introduced in 1935 and had a ground glass stopper until 1968. I’m not sure when the bottler would have switched from stating volume in cc to ml. @saminlondon might have a better idea. My Guerlain book might say, but it’s not handy at the moment.

 

[Miss Marple]

Does the stopper have a plastic sleeve? That would date it to the late 1960s or later.

If not, and the stopper is ground glass, it's tricky to date precisely without anything else to go on. My hunch, though (and it's just that), is that the 20ml size was phased out some time in the 60s or 70s,

The stopper is all glass, no plastic sleeve. The antique's dealer I got it from believed it was older than 1960 but not pre-WW2 because the base is acid etched and doesn't say Baccarat. Unless there was originally a paper label and it fell off..?

 

[Miss Marple]

The 20ml was introduced in 1935 and had a ground glass stopper until 1968. I’m not sure when the bottler would have switched from stating volume in cc to ml. @saminlondon might have a better idea. My Guerlain book might say, but it’s not handy at the moment.

That helps narrow it down at least. And I noticed for the first time with help from a flashlight that it says made in France on the back of the front label, in faint red letting. Perhaps it's late 1950's?

 

[N.CAL Fragrance Reviewer]

If I had to guess it probably was after 1960. I own three bottles from the 1940s and 1950s and none of them had the CC listing on the bottle.

 

[Miss Marple]

If I had to guess it probably was after 1960. I own three bottles from the 1940s and 1950s and none of them had the CC listing on the bottle.

Maybe it comes down to that then? In terms of clues. Finding out "when" Guerlain first began acid etching 20.C.C. onto the base of the bottle!

 

[PStoller]

Maybe it comes down to that then? In terms of clues. Finding out "when" Guerlain first began acid etching 20.C.C. onto the base of the bottle!

I’m not sure it was Guerlain, per se, but rather the bottler they used. Baccarat didn’t make any of the 20ml bottles, so it’s no surprise that this one isn’t Baccarat. I don’t know how many other suppliers Guerlain used, so it’s possible N.Cal’s bottles don’t state CC because they were made by a different company, rather than due to age.

 

[Miss Marple]

I’m not sure it was Guerlain, per se, but rather the bottler they used. Baccarat didn’t make any of the 20ml bottles, so it’s no surprise that this one isn’t Baccarat. I don’t know how many other suppliers Guerlain used, so it’s possible N.Cal’s bottles don’t state CC because they were made by a different company, rather than due to age.

I didn't know that (Baccarat didn't make ANY of 20ml bottles) so thank you for clearing that up, at least! Is there a list of companies who did...? As the only other clue (aside from acid etching) is the red lettering on the backside of the label (here's a close-up: see pic). Made in France.

 

[PStoller]

I suspect someone else made the label, and all it says is “Made in France,” so I’m afraid that doesn’t help much. There were variations on the label design: I just don’t know enough about them to date anything by them.

 

[Miss Marple]

I suspect someone else made the label, and all it says is “Made in France,” so I’m afraid that doesn’t help much. There were variations on the label design: I just don’t know enough about them to date anything by them.

Actually, it's a potential clue re: the targeted market. As it was made in France, but it doesn't say Fabriqué en France. It's in English. So it was most likely produced for the export market (shops selling to visitors, tourists) or meant for direct sale in stores outside of France (Canada, UK, Australia, New Zealand). That may help narrow down when the label was made, while factoring in the font they used: Times New Roman.

 

[saminlondon]

Actually, it's a potential clue re: the targeted market. As it was made in France, but it doesn't say Fabriqué en France. It's in English. So it was most likely produced for the export market (shops selling to visitors, tourists) or meant for direct sale in stores outside of France (Canada, UK, Australia, New Zealand). That may help narrow down when the label was made, while factoring in the font they used: Times New Roman.

I've seen several old labels with 'Made in France' printed on the reverse, so I'm not sure that necessarily means it was designed for the export market. However, the 20ml size is unusual and comes up for sale on a fairly regular basis in the US, whereas I don't think I've ever seen one here in France. Some goes for other 'odd' sizes.

Be that as it may, I think we can say that in all likelihood, and in the absence of further clues, your bottle dates to the 1950s or 1960s.

 

[Miss Marple]

I've seen several old labels with 'Made in France' printed on the reverse, so I'm not sure that necessarily means it was designed for the export market. However, the 20ml size is unusual and comes up for sale on a fairly regular basis in the US, whereas I don't think I've ever seen one here in France. Some goes for other 'odd' sizes.

Be that as it may, I think we can say that in all likelihood, and in the absence of further clues, your bottle dates to the 1950s or 1960s.

I did some more sniffing around (so to speak) and stumbled upon this: https://guerlainperfumes.blogspot.com/p/guerlain-flacon-list.html - my bottle (20ml/0.676 oz - 8,2cm/3.23" (1935) : ground glass stopper, changed to plastic in 1968) appears under Other Manufactures. Ie: Pochet et du Courval, Verreries Brosse, Cristalleries de Nancy or Cristal Romesnil. So one of them was making that size between 1935 -1968. And the clue is to look for acid-stamped bases which don't say Made in France but rather "PARIS-FRANCE" - and narrowing down when any of them started doing that. As I'm curious enough to keep trying to pin it down to a specific decade.

 

[N.CAL Fragrance Reviewer]

I don't know if it will be much help or at all but you could compare pictures of other similar L'Heure Bleue (or Mitsouko) bottles from that guessed time - 1960s. Places like Ebay would be a good source - bottles that are up for sale or have been sold recently. Any similar bottles that may have the 20 CC or other indicators could give some confirmation. It's a long shot but maybe worth considering.

 

[saminlondon]

I did some more sniffing around (so to speak) and stumbled upon this: https://guerlainperfumes.blogspot.com/p/guerlain-flacon-list.html - my bottle (20ml/0.676 oz - 8,2cm/3.23" (1935) : ground glass stopper, changed to plastic in 1968) appears under Other Manufactures. Ie: Pochet et du Courval, Verreries Brosse, Cristalleries de Nancy or Cristal Romesnil. So one of them was making that size between 1935 -1968. And the clue is to look for acid-stamped bases which don't say Made in France but rather "PARIS-FRANCE" - and narrowing down when any of them started doing that. As I'm curious enough to keep trying to pin it down to a specific decade.

The size was definitely being made, yes. But I'd be surprised if you could narrow it down to specific date and/or manufacturer. Some things are destined to remain a mystery

 

[Miss Marple]

I solved it! Partly that is: my bottle was more than likely manufactured by Pochet et du Courval and dates to the 1940-1950s. As they were the only company making that 20ml bottle shape for Guerlain + using an acid stamp on the base (during that time period). I got in touch with Grace Hummel at Cleopatria's Boudoir and she was able to help me narrow it down.