Grandpa Nitty--Minimalist 8-Line Sketch of 70s/80s Spicy Aromatic

[mnitabach]

In the spirit of Big L's fantastic 8-line sketches, here is one of mine, altho this contains one natural. It totally reminds me of how my grandpa smelled back in the 70s & 80s: citrus, camphoraceous, spicy, floral, woody, balsamic. I'm not using the "f-word", because missing some definitional elements, but it definitely alludes to that. Here is the formula in ppt.

polvolide 50
ambrocenide 0.025
benzyl salicylate 225
isobornyl acetate 310
florol 175
patchouli abs 225
eugenol 12
citral 3

Polvolide is not obtainable, but habanolide would be a most likely safe substitution (in light of its even greater transparency). That is to be my own next experiment, actually. This is a very useful sketch also for illustrating what super low doses of ambrocenide can do, demonstrating strong effects from immediate top through extended drydown.

 

[parker25mv]

If you wanted to create a variation on this and make it more "orange"-like, one option might be to substitute some of that florol with Claritone (in lower amounts) and linalyl acetate.

I'm also surprised (and pleasantly relieved) not to see any dihydromyrcenol in your formula.

Had you thought about a hint of petitgrain to add character? (could be a mistake, not sure, feel free to shoot down that idea)

 

[mnitabach]

Thanks for these interesting ideas! Yes, I've thought a lot about how elaborating this formula can make it more like a real perfume. The game here is to see what one can do with only eight components, and it started with Big L's 8-liners that solely use aromachems (no naturals). IMO the 8-liner exercise is very very useful for educational purposes, especially for those of us like me who are extremely inexperienced novices to perfumery.

 

[xii]

8-Liners are great! Yet another fan here.

This one looks to me very worth blending. Thanks for sharing!

 

[tobacco]

In the spirit of Big L's fantastic 8-line sketches, here is one of mine, altho this contains one natural. It totally reminds me of how my grandpa smelled back in the 70s & 80s: citrus, camphoraceous, spicy, floral, woody, balsamic. I'm not using the "f-word", because missing some definitional elements, but it definitely alludes to that. Here is the formula in ppt.

polvolide 50
ambrocenide 0.025
benzyl salicylate 225
isobornyl acetate 310
florol 175
patchouli abs 225
eugenol 12
citral 3

Polvolide is not obtainable, but habanolide would be a most likely safe substitution (in light of its even greater transparency). That is to be my own next experiment, actually. This is a very useful sketch also for illustrating what super low doses of ambrocenide can do, demonstrating strong effects from immediate top through extended drydown.

I like grandpa cents! Thank you very much for sharing!

 

[Big L]

That's great, Mike! I love to see that this exercise is catching on.

I will give your formula a try and write back with my comments and variations if I have them.

 

[Sniffita]

That's interesting. A mellis grandpa! Thanks for sharing. I am curious to try it.

Could you please explain me in what sense you use "nitty"? Minimalist?

 

[mnitabach]

Sorry for my ignorance, but what is a "mellis"?

Nitty is a mockery of my last name! ;-)

 

[Sniffita]

Mellis accord was a classic one: benzyl salicylate-eugenol- patchouli.
It can be found in many vintage feminine perfumes.
It is very interesting that you decline it in a manly version.

 

[mnitabach]

Thanks!

 

[greeneaj87]

Please tell me I'm not the only one extremely intrigued by the idea of the idea of "8-line sketches"???? This is brand new to me! And who is this mythical Big-L and where can I find all of his/her sketches?

As a perfumery newbie, the idea of learning how to create a "skeleton of aromachemicals" (thanks Mr. Ruskin) to build around is not only wallet-friendly, but seems like an incredibly good exercise. I might just get these materials and try recreating this sketch, Mnitabach! Thank you!

PS: Also glad to see there's not any DHM in this formula

 

[Bill Roberts]

An interesting thing about the Mellis accord to me is that it was commercially successful "despite" being built on benzyl salicylate being key to it, while most so far as I know do not smell benzyl salicylate very well or are even almost anosmic to it.

I have never understood the claim of "tension" between eugenol and benzyl salicylate, as has been written for this accord. I do smell benzyl salicylate, though for me it is weak, but as for any 'tension" between these two, that I do not perceive, nor do I perceive anything other than additive effect of ingredients, rather than an accord per se.

"Yet," quite successful nonetheless.

I suppose Mellis accords were ruined when the eugenol limit was set rather low. It's now up high enough again that I suppose famous perfumes including the Mellis accord such as Youth Dew, Coco Chanel, and Opium could be restored in eugenol content, perhaps entirely for some, largely for others.

Also puzzling, at least some of these famous perfumes with Mellis accords really didn't use that much benzyl salicylate as I recall, only ordinary amounts. I believe I had read Coco Chanel was only 8%, which would almost be allowed today (current limit 7.3%) and its eugenol certainly would be.

Anyway, I guess I just don't get it on that one. Or more accurately, I know I don't. To me they are individual ingredients. But for others, apparently not.

 

[xii]

Mellis is an effect in perfume imitating Aqua Mellis, honey water. Recently, sort of, It's been obtained chiefly from the combination of benzyl salicylate with other things: spice, usually clove, patchouly and muquet, usually in the form of hydroxycitronellal. Your formula, mnitabach, has it all in it.

 

[Bill Roberts]

Thank you xii!

I forgot to mention that though I was thinking it. I had even fetched Mumsy's old post on that but still forgot to include, instead droning on only about eugenol and benzyl salicylate. Forest lost for the trees:

Aqua Mellis

5 honey
8 bergamot oil
1 lavender oil - French
1 clove oil
0.5 nutmeg oil
1 coriander oil
3.5 santalwood oil
5 benzoin R
2 musk extract, 3 per cent
100 rose water triple
100 orange flower water triple
800 grape spirit
____
1027

As for relation of benzyl salicylate + eugenol to this other than of course both sharing eugenol, I have no conception, for me there is no other similarity, but I guess that is me (and perhaps some percentage of the population? But not enough to hold back the modern Mellis, clearly.)

EDIT: Or, am I misinterpreting or have read only oversimplifications of the modern Mellis accord? For example, suppose I had read some article oversimplifying Fougeres and saying they are Lavender plus Coumarin. I would probably say rather similarly about the Fougere accord as I just did above about the modern Mellis accord, but for being able to smell both Lavender and Coumarin very well. But the same in terms of if talking about only those two, then no real "name accord" effect for me worth mentioning. Perhaps indeed no one, other than at least one author but I think more like two or three, really would say that merely benzyl salicylate plus eugenol gives you a Mellis accord?

 

[Sniffita]

I really want to try Mike's formula.
But I just realized that florol is in my next order list, I have finished it.
I might replace it with Lyral. Definitely sliding towards Coco's territory. Why not?

 

[xii]

So many answers appeared while I was struggling to compose my two liner.

I have never understood the claim of "tension" between eugenol and benzyl salicylate, as has been written for this accord. I do smell benzyl salicylate, though for me it is weak, but as for any 'tension" between these two, that I do not perceive, nor do I perceive anything other than additive effect of ingredients, rather than an accord per se.

I like this statement quite a bit. I see no reason to buy these obscure expressions if they fail to resonate with the reason. Excuse me the alliteration. This written I actually strongly perceive the mellis accord, and many related accords, as a whole. The perception is so strong I'm going to make a fool of myself and try to explain it somehow:

Accord Mellis, and many others, are like a musical instrument made from seemeingly unrelated parts arranged in unpredictable ways. And often with calming curves set against straights of strings and bridges and rows of keys. Arbitrarily. That is until the purpose of the instrument is revealed. Benzyl salicylate is a somewhat sluggish floral. At times overpowering but going nowhere really. A constant hum in the background. Eugenol always wants to transcend. It's a deceptive component. It can be carnation floral, honey cake sweet or five spice exotic or teargas stinging of some medical institution. The combination of the two seems arbitrary at best. But with a little help from a handful of other components the purpose can get revealed and the whole semantic mess starts to make sense. Surely more sense that what I've just written in any case...

 

[Bill Roberts]

Thank you xii. That does help. While I can't perceive that myself, having your explanation does help (to the limited extent ever possible when oneself lacking a perception) grasp what can happen for others with these, and this is by so many accounts a quite important accord.

I do grasp your points on each individually, oddly enough, having similar perceptions on the individual components, but somehow the combination doesn't affect me the same way. Perhaps I am just too weak a smeller of benzyl salicylate.

I have never tried a quantitative odor intensity comparison but I would suppose I would need to dilute eugenol perhaps 100 times more than benzyl salicylate to be, for me, apparently comparable odor strength. Perhaps that makes the accord impossible, or would require just whopping benzyl salicylate to scant eugenol. That could be interesting to try.

 

[mnitabach]

I really want to try Mike's formula.
But I just realized that florol is in my next order list, I have finished it.
I might replace it with Lyral. Definitely sliding towards Coco's territory. Why not?

Lyral substitution for florol was already on my list to try! It will extend the muguet into base. Let us know how it goes. I will definitely try it too as my next variation.

 

[Sniffita]

I am going to say a few stupid things, but just my personal impressions:
- for me an accord is an accord when I can smell it clearly in my mind, withou having it there, just remembering it very clearly; and it is not 1+2+3, it's a different smell, different aesthetics;
- the so-called-mellis is one that I can smell in my mind;
- I cordially hate benzyl salicylate, to my nose is dead flowers; but I don't dislike a carnation note, better if it is BS + clove oil, rather than eugenol; I like better BS + clove + patchouli; I feel the muguet compliments the accord, but is not the core part of it, it's more like it gives transition to something else;
- I am not sure the mellis can stand alone, without other florals. That's why I am really interested in trying Mike's formula.
These are only subjective feelings, of course.

 

[Bill Roberts]

One thing I don't understand is that both eugenol and benzyl salicylate are so very common, and figures I have seen that are called Mellis accords are at least sometimes utterly ordinary concentrations of each.

E.g., pulling up TGSC's demo formulas for benzyl salicylate, http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/demos/dm1001792.html , 67 of them have eugenol.

Do you perceive Mellis accord in great numbers of things then?

And as an example of concentrations sometimes being seemingly ordinary for each, Paul once posted:

Mellis accord from Coco Chanel:

35 Eugenol
80 Benzyl Salicylate (This is Eugenol : Benzyl Salicylate = (1 : 2.28)
50 Patchouli
65 Lyral

Or do you think I should take that as, well, you need muguet note of some kind and patchouli else you don't have Mellis? Not that Paul said that universally, this was only a single example of ingredients chosen as being within the Mellis accord.

Also, Julian posted this:

I am quite intrigued by this Mellis accord which to my understanding is:
* "Youth Dew (1952), Opium(1977), and Coco belong, has evolved around the relationship between Benzyl Salicylate and Eugenol which we saw in L'Air du Temps, but here used in combination with Patchouli and Hydroxycitronellal (another important accord), spices, woody notes, and coumarin. This combination, which for convenience we will refer to as the "Mellis" accord, had also been used as the basis for a number of important speciality bases such as Melysflor and Pimenal, which were used in the creation of such perfumes as Blue Grass and Moment Supreme."

In regards to Opium:
* "The typical mellis accord is built around a combination of benzyl salicylate (12%), eugenol with clove and pimento, patchouli (8%), hydroxycitronellal (10%), Vertofix, and coumarin (2.5%). The coumarin can be seen as acting as a link between the mellis and the ambreine accord, which is here based on a combination of both vanillin and ethyl vanillin. A combination of balsamic and resinous materials, including benzoin, styrax, opoponax, and tolu contribute to the overall oriental effect."

... In regards to Coco(1984):
* "follows much the same pattern as Opium but with a greater emphasis on the floral notes. Hedione is here a major constituent, and Lyral has now replaced hydroxycitronellal as part of the mellis accord. These materials, together with the salicylates, eugenol, and patchouli, make up some 45% of the formula."


* Perfumery Practice and Principles; Calkin & Jellinek