Fougere or Chypre: do classical categories for fragrance still apply? Are they still relevant in the genre-blending of C21st global economics/culture?

[Darjeeling]

They’re essentially meaningless to me in this hobby, especially as old school scents aren’t my thing. For me, they really only apply to those older scents that more closely fit the definition and new scents made in a somewhat retro style. They’ve become even less useful with regulations restricting the use of ingredients that are essential for those kinds of scents.

 

[slpfrsly]

In what world is Le Male considered a fougere instead of what it unambiguously actually is - an Ambery Oriental?

JPG describes it as an oriental aromatic. Fragrantica as an amber fougere. Wikipedia (I know...) as an oriental fougere.

 

[Renato]

JPG describes it as an oriental aromatic. Fragrantica as an amber fougere. Wikipedia (I know...) as an oriental fougere.

Interesting thanks.
Oriental Fougeres was what other classifiers classified the Ambery Fougere category of the old H&R Chart - which included such scents as Brut, Dunhill Desire, Salavdor Dali PH, Xeryus Rouge, Diesel Plus Plus and Nikos Sculpture (which all have a similar vibe to my nose).

I think I'll go along with Mr JPG as Le Male doesn't smell anything like those scents to my nose.
Regards,
Renato

 

[slpfrsly]

Interesting thanks.
Oriental Fougeres was what other classifiers classified the Ambery Fougere category of the old H&R Chart - which included such scents as Brut, Dunhill Desire, Salavdor Dali PH, Xeryus Rouge, Diesel Plus Plus and Nikos Sculpture (which all have a similar vibe to my nose).

I think I'll go along with Mr JPG as Le Male doesn't smell anything like those scents to my nose.
Regards,
Renato

The fougere elements of Le Male are quite obvious to me. It even has a more overt conceptual fougere-ness than Sauvage, which is also sold as a fougere (where calling it a fougere in any traditional sense seems a stretch). What that means in terms of classifying Le Male/using the old genres is what the thread is getting at: how useful are these terms and categories to contemporary perfumery? Is Le Male really best-described as an ambery oriental? There are plenty of ambery orientals that smell nothing like Le Male as well...

 

[Renato]

The fougere elements of Le Male are quite obvious to me. It even has a more overt conceptual fougere-ness than Sauvage, which is also sold as a fougere (where calling it a fougere in any traditional sense seems a stretch). What that means in terms of classifying Le Male/using the old genres is what the thread is getting at: how useful are these terms and categories to contemporary perfumery? Is Le Male really best-described as an ambery oriental? There are plenty of ambery orientals that smell nothing like Le Male as well...

Here's the H&R Chart.

http://www.leffingwell.com/h&rfragrance/poster_genealogie_masculin.pdf

Your nose is perceiving something I'm not.

The scents up and down the column labelled Ambery Oriental which includes Le Male all have something in common to my nose.
Whereas the scents in the Fougere columns - like Tommy, Cool Water, Jazz, Azzaro PH etc - don't have anything much in common with Le Male, other than that they are scents.

True, the scents in the Ambery Fougere column do resemble Orientals, and were often called Fresh Orientals back then. The old categories seem to be doing something extremely useful as far as I perceive them.

I've always had an attachment to the H&R chart because of that Ambery Fougere column, the scents of which seemed to always resonate with my nose. Same thing with one of my nephews - nowadays I always buy him an Ambery Fougere for Christmas or his birthday, and he's mighty pleased.
Regards,
Renato

 

[UESNYC]

This discussion reminds me of NYC pizza talk.

 

[slpfrsly]

This discussion reminds me of NYC pizza talk.

What, it's making you hungry?

Or that it reminds you just how much better Europe is than America?

Or...?

 

[slpfrsly]

Here's the H&R Chart.

http://www.leffingwell.com/h&rfragrance/poster_genealogie_masculin.pdf

Your nose is perceiving something I'm not.

The scents up and down the column labelled Ambery Oriental which includes Le Male all have something in common to my nose.
Whereas the scents in the Fougere columns - like Tommy, Cool Water, Jazz, Azzaro PH etc - don't have anything much in common with Le Male, other than that they are scents.

True, the scents in the Ambery Fougere column do resemble Orientals, and were often called Fresh Orientals back then. The old categories seem to be doing something extremely useful as far as I perceive them.

I've always had an attachment to the H&R chart because of that Ambery Fougere column, the scents of which seemed to always resonate with my nose. Same thing with one of my nephews - nowadays I always buy him an Ambery Fougere for Christmas or his birthday, and he's mighty pleased.
Regards,
Renato

But the issue seems to be quite an obvious one. Amber Absolute (or Ambre Sultan) are great examples of "ambery orientals". You probably couldn't think of a better iteration of the category than the amber-centric trend that includes those two fragrances. Do they smell anything like Le Male? Now, maybe they do to you. But I can think of plenty of fougeres, particularly the more tonka-heavy ones, that smell more like Le Male than Amber Absolute does. Or, choose another fragrance from that category. So "it doesn't smell like other fragrances in its genre" is obviously not a great measure for trying to categorise what, let's not forget, we've already established is a grey area (and wrt the rest of the topic, the greyness is something that is more common in recent releases). The fougere category is also much larger than the oriental one, so more opportunity to find fragrances that are not alike.

Tbh I don't feel strongly about it, however I can easily make the case for Le Male being a fougere and I'm surprised you can't see/smell at least some of the conceptual links to the genre that Kurkdjian is going for. But, as I hope I said earlier in the thread (without checking), when subverting expectations becomes the norm (very 1990's), you deliberately get merging and toying with existing structures - where Le Male went, Sauvage followed (and went even further).

On another note, I find significant crossover between the Cool Water 'laundry' scent and Le Male. So much so I come across them regularly in other consumer products. Dove deodorant for men is one of them, and one I use. So perhaps the connection doesn't make sense to you, for whatever reason, but it does to me (and I'm sure other people, including big players in other industries because they keep using the Le Male scent in consumer products that would previously have been soapy/aromatic!)

 

[UESNYC]

What, it's making you hungry?

Or that it reminds you just how much better Europe is than America?

Or...?

We here in the US are happy to keep Europeans safe and happy. It makes us proud we shoulder the burden that way you can take two months vacation.

 

[Renato]

But the issue seems to be quite an obvious one. Amber Absolute (or Ambre Sultan) are great examples of "ambery orientals". You probably couldn't think of a better iteration of the category than the amber-centric trend that includes those two fragrances. Do they smell anything like Le Male? Now, maybe they do to you. But I can think of plenty of fougeres, particularly the more tonka-heavy ones, that smell more like Le Male than Amber Absolute does. Or, choose another fragrance from that category. So "it doesn't smell like other fragrances in its genre" is obviously not a great measure for trying to categorise what, let's not forget, we've already established is a grey area (and wrt the rest of the topic, the greyness is something that is more common in recent releases). The fougere category is also much larger than the oriental one, so more opportunity to find fragrances that are not alike.

Tbh I don't feel strongly about it, however I can easily make the case for Le Male being a fougere and I'm surprised you can't see/smell at least some of the conceptual links to the genre that Kurkdjian is going for. But, as I hope I said earlier in the thread (without checking), when subverting expectations becomes the norm (very 1990's), you deliberately get merging and toying with existing structures - where Le Male went, Sauvage followed (and went even further).

On another note, I find significant crossover between the Cool Water 'laundry' scent and Le Male. So much so I come across them regularly in other consumer products. Dove deodorant for men is one of them, and one I use. So perhaps the connection doesn't make sense to you, for whatever reason, but it does to me (and I'm sure other people, including big players in other industries because they keep using the Le Male scent in consumer products that would previously have been soapy/aromatic!)

I can't really comment on Ambre Sultan (smelled it once over a decade ago) and Ambre Absolute (never smelled it).

Cool Water and other fresh and woody fougeres I can wear any time except in the depths of winter. Le Male I've only ever wore at night clubs with a woman hanging off my arm. I just can't see any connection. I'm not saying it isn't there, but I can't detect it.
Regards,
Renato

 

[Hugh V.]

I just wanted to comment on the architecture, and its analogy to modern fragrances.

When I immediately see these buildings, primarily the first one, yes, I'm inclined to be have more disdain than appreciation for it. On one hand, it's impressive. On the other, it comes across as try hard, and just to be different for its own sake. It comes across as something intended to win awards within the architect within the architecture/art community, irrespective of how the public feels about it. If the public doesn't like it...what are they gonna do? For buildings like museums, they have no real recourse, and I'd imagine that the designers of these changes take advantage of that. The public doesn't like it? Oh well, they just don't understand art.

In perfumery, the only great example of that disruptive/dissonance would be CK's Contradiction for Men. It's somewhat like the olfactory equivalent of that first museum building. Two completely different aspects/styles/smells, put together, for a very abrasive effect.

From what little I know of traditional chypre fragrances, I can't recall any recent offerings that would remind me of Claiborne for Men, or Aramis New West. Those have a very dry yet crisp smell to them in the dry down. Not warm or heavy. Halston Z-14 on other hand is also a well-known chypre, and yet I would compare it more to something like JV Vintage, which I believe is more along the lines of a fougere.

 

[slpfrsly]

We here in the US are happy to keep Europeans safe and happy. It makes us proud we shoulder the burden that way you can take two months vacation.

Interesting fantasy you've got there. This you?

 

[slpfrsly]

I just wanted to comment on the architecture, and its analogy to modern fragrances.

When I immediately see these buildings, primarily the first one, yes, I'm inclined to be have more disdain than appreciation for it. On one hand, it's impressive. On the other, it comes across as try hard, and just to be different for its own sake. It comes across as something intended to win awards within the architect within the architecture/art community, irrespective of how the public feels about it. If the public doesn't like it...what are they gonna do? For buildings like museums, they have no real recourse, and I'd imagine that the designers of these changes take advantage of that. The public doesn't like it? Oh well, they just don't understand art.

In perfumery, the only great example of that disruptive/dissonance would be CK's Contradiction for Men. It's somewhat like the olfactory equivalent of that first museum building. Two completely different aspects/styles/smells, put together, for a very abrasive effect.

From what little I know of traditional chypre fragrances, I can't recall any recent offerings that would remind me of Claiborne for Men, or Aramis New West. Those have a very dry yet crisp smell to them in the dry down. Not warm or heavy. Halston Z-14 on other hand is also a well-known chypre, and yet I would compare it more to something like JV Vintage, which I believe is more along the lines of a fougere.

There's a little more background to the architecture than simply winning awards/trying to appeal to critics. The subversiveness that inspired these buildings is present in perfume as well in the way that it stitches on something new (material, structure, aesthetic) to something old (the fougere, the chypre) to produce a fragrance like Le Male or Sauvage. The expectation and accepted understanding of what a fougere actually is gets upturned and worn down. You might have to pick out fragrances that are deliberately repulsive - animalic scents, something like Kouros perhaps, or anything with faecal/urinous notes in an otherwise clean/fresh fragrance - to really make the comparison to these buildings but there's a lot more going on than just novelty or status-signalling. That's part of, absolutely, but there's also ideology and (destructive) meaning behind them as well.

I haven't tried Contradiction but that's interesting. It sounds like exactly the sort of thing that gets created by the above mindset.

The confusion about what constitutes a chypre, what a fougere, really leads to the question: are they still useful? Do they still make sense? What do you think?

If the public doesn't like it...what are they gonna do?

Yes, quite, but that's another discussion entirely about who controls what, how they control it, the limits of democracy etc.

The public doesn't like it? Oh well, they just don't understand art.

You may find this thread an interesting exploration of that subject.

 

[Ifti]

Traditional with a capital "T" please! 🤭

 

[David Ruskin]

My first reaction is to think "Does it matter?" Then I think, as always that it is necessary to define one's terms. I have a very clear idea of what a Fougere should be. A Fougere is built upon an accord of Lavender, Bergamot and Geranium. Thus, Le Male, whilst it is Lavender heavy is not a Fougere. Le Male is a musk fragrance.

Chypres are harder to define. Traditional Chypres always had a lot of moss, either Treemoss or Oakmoss. They were not especially floral but were often powdery with a violet/orris note. Think of Femme, Mitsouko, Miss Dior (original, not the modern abortion), Coty's original, even Aramis (one of the few masculine Chypres). As the use of moss is so severely restricted, I wonder if Chypre can exist any longer.

I have not read many of the previous posts. Just adding my two pennyworth .