Enhancing a Yuzu note

[texas28]

Hey everyone, I’m working on a marine fragrance with a Yuzu top note. I’m not sure if anyone else has this experience, but I find yuzu to be extremely weak compared to other citruses. I’d like for it to stand out a lot more and be more prominent in the opening. Here is my complete formula so far:

Anything with an asterisk has already been added:

Ambrox Super = 0.50*

Calone 10% = 5 (0.5/4.5)*

Aquamate = 0.15*

Algenone = 0.50*

Myrtle = 0.025*

Seaweed Absolute 50% = 0.05 (0.025/0.025)*

Hedione = 3.25*

Scentenal = 0.9*

Ultrazur = 0.05*

Habanolide = 3*

Ethylene Brassylate = 1.50*

Velvione = 0.50*

Adoxal = 0.14*

Amyl Salicylate = 0.6*

Ambrinol 10% = 0.2 (0.02/0.18)*

Norlimbanol 10% = 1 (0.1/0.9)*

Terrasol FCC 10% = 0.2 (0.02/0.18)*

Lilial = 0.80*

Melonal = 0.025*

Ethyl Linalool = 1.125*

Benzyl Salicylate = 6*

Cis-3 Hexenyl Salicylate = 2.2*

Timbersilk = 3*

Helional = 0.175*

Beta Ionone = 0.25*

Maratina = 0.025*

Algix = 0.05*

Dihydromercenol = 0.75*

Precyclemone B = 0.025*

Galaxolide 50% = 2.5 (1.25/1.25)*

Veramoss = 0.05*

Cashmeran = 0.145*

Virginia Cedar = 0.25*

Bacdanol = 0.25*

Clary Sage = 1.25

Guaiac Wood 20% = 1.25 (0.25/1)*

Yuzu Essential Oil = 2*

Cedramber = 1.25

Guavanate = 0.025*

Paradisamide = 0.05*

Cypress = 0.05*

BHT = 0.025*

Jasmine = 0.075*

Vetiver = 0.25*

Ylang Ylang = 0.10*

Ginger CO2 = 0.175*

Red Mandarin = 0.35*

Ruby Red Grapefruit = 0.50*

Methyl Pamplemousse = 0.50*

I do enjoy the smell overall but again, I want the yuzu to stand out more because even with the amount I’ve added, I can barely detect it. I’m thinking of increasing the amount of hedione or dihydromercenol but wanted to get your thoughts first because too much dihydromercenol and it’ll start smelling like limes. I also have magnolan that I could use or even aldehyde c9.

 

[pkiler]

Hi, This formula is in grams, and not in percent?
If so, could you post it in %?

 

[texas28]

Here you go. I did add a couple more things and I’ve also listed the formula at 100% concentration to make it more clear exactly how much of each material is being added. Also, some of the percentages were rounded up or down to the nearest hundredth of a percent.

Ambrox Super = 1.4%*

Calone = 1.4%*

Aquamate = 0.42%*

Algenone = 1.4%*

Myrtle = 0.07%*

Seaweed Absolute = 0.07%*

Hedione = 9.3%*

Scentenal = 2.57%*

Ultrazur = 0.14%*

Habanolide = 8.57%*

Ethylene Brassylate = 4.28%*

Velvione = 1.4%*

Adoxal = 0.4%*

Amyl Salicylate = 1.71%*

Ambrinol = 0.057%*

Norlimbanol = 0.28%*

Terrasol FCC = 0.057%*

Lilial = 2.28%*

Melonal = 0.07%*

Ethyl Linalool = 3.21%*

Benzyl Salicylate = 17.1%*

Cis-3 Hexenyl Salicylate = 6.28%*

Timbersilk = 8.57%*

Helional = 0.5%*

Beta Ionone = 0.7%*

Maratina = 0.07%*

Algix = 0.14%*

Dihydromercenol = 2.14%*

Precyclemone B = 0.07%*

Galaxolide = 3.57%*

Veramoss = 0.14%*

Cashmeran = 0.41%*

Virginia Cedar = 0.7%*

Bacdanol = 0.7%*

Clary Sage = 3.5%

Guaiac Wood = 0.7%*

Yuzu Essential Oil = 5.7%*

Cedramber = 3.5%

Guavanate = 0.07%*

Paradisamide = 0.14%*

Cypress = 0.14%*

BHT = 0.07%*

Jasmine = 0.21%*

Vetiver = 0.7%*

Ylang Ylang = 0.28%*

Ginger CO2 = 0.5%*

Red Mandarin = 1%*

Ruby Red Grapefruit = 1.4%*

Methyl Pamplemousse = 1.4%*

 

[Citroasis]

Wayyyyy too much ozone/aquatic materials (calone, aquamate, algenone, scentenal, Adoxal, ultrazur, algix, maritima, etc).

These need to be trimmed wayyyyy back. And you probably don't need every single ozone material on the market in a formula. Just pick 1-2 that fit the theme your going with and dose those appropriately (like in the 1-2ppt range each)

 

[parker25mv]

You can reinforce Yuzu with Seville sour/bitter orange (C. aurantium), a little bit of lime and lemon EO together, perhaps also with clemantine EO if you don't have anything better to maintain the overall "orange" character. Perhaps (optional) the tiniest hint of paradisamide and methyl pamplemousse, if you want to emphasise the pungent aspect. (This is also a case where a very low level of Dimethyl Sulfide may be useful) A hint of Sichuan pepper, or (even better but much harder to find) Japanese sancho pepper EO could also go well with it, to add some spiciness.

For a discussion of ACs see this thread: Trying to put together a Yuzu accord

Ginger, cardamom, and 1-3% Prismantol (sort of woody-spicy) can also go well in a Yuzu fragrance, mostly just going well and coordinating with the Yuzu note but also supporting it just a little bit.
bergamot can support yuzu to some extent but doesn't have exactly the same distinct type of character, just a sort of general similar feel, a little bit like sour orange. both have a fragrant sour "orange color" citrus feel like yuzu

 

[parker25mv]

Wayyyyy too much ozone/aquatic materials (calone, aquamate, algenone, scentenal, Adoxal, ultrazur, algix, maritima, etc).

I totally agree that there are too many aquatics in this formula and their levels are much too high, but ultrazur, maritima, and jasmorange probably can go well with yuzu.

Many of those aquatics are actually aldehydes and can be very overpowering over other notes if not dosed very low.

My overall assessment of the formula is they may need to drastically simplify, get rid of a lot of things, reduce the amounts of some things, try to focus more on the Yuzu note to let in shine through and use more of it.

Maybe reduce the sage down to 1.2%, get rid of the bacdanol, try to throw out things that don't contribute citrus-like texture.
Cedramber down to 0.6%. I would not use the Ruby red variety of grapefruit EO (nor the pink), that may be contributing to muddling the fragrance.
The use of red mandarin rather than regular mandarin might not have been the best idea if you wish to emphasise yuzu which is a more sour citrus.

 

[mnitabach]

Wayyyyy too much ozone/aquatic materials (calone, aquamate, algenone, scentenal, Adoxal, ultrazur, algix, maritima, etc).

These need to be trimmed wayyyyy back. And you probably don't need every single ozone material on the market in a formula. Just pick 1-2 that fit the theme your going with and dose those appropriately (like in the 1-2ppt range each)

Agreed 💯💯💯. More thoughts:

(1) The vast quantities of musk molecules could very easily be masking yuzu effects from the get-go. In addition to the quantity, while the hab, eb, galax are reasonably transparent, velvione & cashmeran can be quite opaque at these doses, which are quite high for a formula not seeking to feature them.

(2) In terms of scent character, cashmeran seems to me subjectively to be the exact opposite of marine aquatic. It is heavy spicy dark musky...

(3) DHM confers very powerful citrus herbal top effects, could easily mask yuzu.

(4) As always, the best route IMO & IME to achieving your goal is to first strip this down dramatically to MANY fewer materials, focusing on the main structure of the composition. Only when that is performing well & giving you the desired progression of main scent effects, start layering in more subtle effects. Trying to "fix" this formula in its current state of complexity seems like a vastly more complicated & difficult route.

ETA:

(5) You've also got what could be a vastly too high amount of salicylates in there. The strong herbal floral balsamic effects of these materials in these doses again seems totally counter to the "citrus marine aquatic" vibe you are seeking. Maybe a bit of amyl salicylate makes sense, but not shittons of benzyl sal & cis-3 hexenyl sal. What do you even think they are doing?

ETA2:

(6) Classical aquatic marine effects can be achieved with simply helional + calone, perhaps at 10:1, totalling 1% of formula. Maybe start with this?

(7) Take out all of the other citrus materials at first & only include yuzu. Then you can add them back to see what happens once you have a context where yuzu is prominent.

(8) Ignore the advice to ADD things to this formula as it stands...

 

[texas28]

Thanks for the advice but just a few points I'd like to make:

1. The vast amounts of benzyl salicylate are from a sea salt accord demo formula from a site called Creative Formulas, consisting of benzyl salicylate, cis-3 hexenyl salicylate, scentenal, amyl salicylate, adoxal, norlimbanol, terrasol and ambrinol.
2. The amounts of calone, ambrox super and other materials are from Creative Formula's ultrablue base. Perhaps I should've clarified this but the main focus of the fragrance is to have a marine/aquatic smell to it. I simply wanted to enhance the yuzu in the opening. By no means do I want this to be a yuzu-centric fragrance. Think of Heeley's Note de Yuzu but reversed. Instead of the yuzu being the main focus of the fragrance, I want the salty/marine accord to be the central point. However, you can still detect the yuzu very prominently in the opening and you know it's there. I also don't want a traditional aquatic smell either. I'm looking for a more marine like effect, which is why I added small amounts of the other materials like algenone, seaweed abs, etc. Perhaps I could've gotten away with only adding maybe 1 of those materials (maybe just the seaweed absolute for example and not the algenone, algix, etc.) and I'll make note of that for next time. I'm sure Dimethyl Sulfide would help with the marine aspects but shipping costs for it are ridiculous lol. Pell Wall is the only place I've seen it and they charge almost $60 to ship to the U.S. That's more than double what it was just a couple of months ago I think.
3. I have seen cashmeran used in marine/aquatic scents before and at even higher amounts than what I'm using here because it's sometimes used to enhance the salty effect in those types of fragrances apparently. I've also been told that sage can do this as well.
4. The amount of musk I'm using is actually quite low compared to other formulas I've seen for aquatic fragrances. For instance, and again I'm referencing Creative Formulas here, but their version of Creed's Virgin Island Water uses more than 4 times the amount of galaxolide than what I'm using here. However, they are also using more than double the amount of hedione of what I have as well as an astronomically higher amount of citruses.

All that being said, I will certainly take this advice you've provided and take another look at my formula. For instance, I actually probably could've eliminated my sea salt accord entirely and relied on other materials like cedramber and sage as these are both used very heavily in Jo Malone's Wood Sage and Sea Salt to create it's salty effect. As strange as this sounds, the most dominant material I'm detecting is actually the terrasol, despite it only being 0.057% of the formula. The actually aquatic/marine effects don't come out until several hours later on a test strip. However, that might just be an issue of giving the formula enough time to macerate.

 

[mnitabach]

As strange as this sounds, the most dominant material I'm detecting is actually the terrasol, despite it only being 0.057% of the formula. The actually aquatic/marine effects don't come out until several hours later on a test strip.

Yeah, this is a sign that your formula isn't working as you intend. Trying to bolt together "modules" from various other formulas--which we've all tried desperately--pretty much never works, because unfortunately perfume composition isn't modular.

 

[texas28]

Agreed and excellent point. Often times we forget that simply adding different bases or accords together isn't the best route since certain materials from one accord or base can greatly impact the materials from another and it throws everything off. What I probably should've done was focus on recreating a formula from one finished perfume from Creative Formulas, whether it be Jo Malone's Wood Sage and Sea Salt, Creed VIW or whatever since they already have the ratios of marine and aquatic materials in the right balance. Then, introduced the yuzu later on once the other materials have been added. I will still keep tinkering with my current formula and see where it goes but I will probably end up starting over and taking a more simplistic approach next time.

 

[mnitabach]

Agreed and excellent point. Often times we forget that simply adding different bases or accords together isn't the best route since certain materials from one accord or base can greatly impact the materials from another and it throws everything off. What I probably should've done was focus on recreating a formula from one finished perfume from Creative Formulas, whether it be Jo Malone's Wood Sage and Sea Salt, Creed VIW or whatever since they already have the ratios of marine and aquatic materials in the right balance. Then, introduced the yuzu later on once the other materials have been added. I will still keep tinkering with my current formula and see where it goes but I will probably end up starting over and taking a more simplistic approach next time.

My own personal success rate at "keep tinkering" with a fundamentally broken formula (which I suspect yours is) versus "starting over and taking a more simplistic approach" is zero.

 

[rococo]

I’m suspicious of the cashmeran in here too. She’s pretty but she’s a bruiser and can take up a ton of space at every stage of the fragrance even in a small amount

Ditto cedramber, though it’s of course much “lower slope”

Methyl pamplemousse can really squash top notes IME - if you have it in a similar proportion to other citruses, the methyl pamplemousse will win - try cutting to trace amounts <1%

 

[David Ruskin]

Ignoring the given formula, and trying simply to boost the Yuzu note. Have you looked at the various iterations of Agrumen Aldehyde? Have you looked at Mandarin aldehyde? Have you looked at Citrathal? All of these will, I think, help.

 

[pkiler]

I'd also recommend to understand the molecular constituents of your target natural by reading through a GCMS of your quested material, like this for instance:

https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/fstr/14/4/14_4_359/_pdf

 

[parker25mv]

I'd also recommend to understand the molecular constituents of your target natural by reading through a GCMS of your quested material

That's usually or often a good idea, but may not be so useful for the note of yuzu in particular.
I don't think most of the special olfactory character of yuzu comes from the main components that you would see listed in its GCMS.

Out of that long list, I think maybe only hints of myrcene, beta-pinene, possibly tiny level (0.4-0.5%) of caryophyllene, farnesene, linalool (linalool also found in bergamot in even higher levels) might be at all useful and realistically obtainable. (the terpene germacrene can also be cheaply added through the addition of calendula) and of course limonene (56-60%) makes up a big overall part of yuzu (but that's going to also be found in many orange-smelling citrus varieties like mandarin or clementine).

 

[Jamesmiju]

I built a citrus yuzu accord I use it to boost and prolong the note.

The main portion of the formula is:

30% mandarin eo
25% lemon eo
20% yuzu eo
10% iso e super
5% methyl pamplemousse
2% alpha phellandrene
1.5% PK's long lasting lemon base
1.5% pine eo
1% bergamot givco
1% lime leaves IFF
1% beta caryophyllene
0.5% aldehyde c10
0.5% pink pepper
0.5% cetalox
0.5% aldehyde c11

There's traces of other essential oils in my final formula to help match the yuzu I bought from my Tokyo trip but these are the main players I used.

Hope it helps a bit?

 

[parker25mv]

The above formula doesn't look bad but 5% methyl pamplemousse seems far too high for a yuzu accord. Maybe try taking it down to 0.5 or 0.75% ?
It's very difficult for me to imagine it going above 2% in this situation. If you want to add a green citrusy material, there are several other alternative ACs (such as the suggestions David Ruskin made).

 

[Jamesmiju]

The accord is used 4% of my final perfume formula and it isn't too prominent for me. The mandarin essential oil I have is very sweet and I find the methyl pamplemousse helps a lot.

 

[Bobby7]

I think yellow mandarin is closer to Yuzu than red mandarin, an accord with these two and a smidge of methyl pamplemouse sounds great!

 

[ScentAle]

I never tried this base, but I found there is Yuzu aldehyde Firmenich base, written to enhance the natural Yuzu. Seems that there is inside also the extremely strong lemon folded x10. Who know maybe could work well making it a Yuzu bomb.