Diluting Vanillin / Ethyl Vanillin Crystals (Aroma Chemicals) and Isolates

[stylez_911]

If diluting into ethanol, you might want a higher concentration such as 5%. I only happen to have it at 1% myself.

Sorry, I forgot to ask.

By this, you would first dilute the ethyl vanillin into a solvent such as DPG and then mix that solution with alcohol after, correct?

In that case, what would the ratio's be for that, say for example you want to make a 1 oz. alcohol based ethyl vanillin solution? I figure diluting a DPG dilution further with alcohol would decrease the potency of the vanillin.

 

[stylez_911]

If you're making a fairly small amount of total formula, then it can be more accurate to weight out a number of 20% solutions than to weigh out pure materials.

Got it, and thank makes sense.

I guess my main question now is what a good formula would be for creating such solutions at say 25% concentration.

Would it be:

Essential Oil / Absolute Oil: 25%
Perfumer's Alcohol or Carrier Oil: 75%

And for creating a vanilla accord solution using ethyl vanillin, DPG or IPM, or perfumer's alcohol:

Step 1) Create initial solution using 10% Ethyl Vanillin Crystals dissolved into 90% DPG or IPM
Step 2) Blend 10% of initial solution (created in step 1) with 90% Perfumer's Alcohol or Carrier Oil (depending on whether DPG or IPM was used as solvent) - this will leave us with a 10% concentrate of initial solution in the base of alcohol or carrier oil - making up the other 90%, leaving us the final solution that can then be blended with the other solutions of essential oils etc., is that logic accurate?

 

[Bill Roberts]

Step 1 has you at 10% already. Blend this with your other materials, unless it's too concentrated (the amount you need to weigh out is too little) at which point you could consider 1% if needed.

 

[stylez_911]

Step 1 has you at 10% already. Blend this with your other materials, unless it's too concentrated (the amount you need to weigh out is too little) at which point you could consider 1% if needed.

Okay great, so then the solution itself for the ethyl vanillin only needs to be with a solvent such as DPG or IPM, skipping the dilution in alcohol?

Not quite sure what you mean by "the amount you need to weigh out is too little"... Can you please elaborate on that? Do you simply mean that the vanillin to solvent ratio is too high and therefore there will not be enough weight in the amount of liquid necessary to balance the blend (therefore, further dilution to 1% will accommodate the extra weight needed)

It would be amazing if you can provide a quick example for creating a full alcohol-based fragrance, say using a mix of two essential oil solutions (at 25% concentrate) as well as the DPG ethyl vanillin solution mentioned above (without alcohol).

Say we have the following oil solutions at (25% concentrate):

1) Neroli
2) Blood Orange

and the 10% ethyl vanillin DPG solution

If I wanted to make a 1oz. EDP for example using the above solution, would it simply be a matter of weighing the 3 solutions to equal out to 1oz.? maybe 40% Neroli solution, 40% Blood Orange solution, and 20% Ethyl Vanillin Solution?

My plan is to create a go-to vanilla solution as a base for my vanilla-driven fragrances, so that will probably include a mix of vanillin solution, vanilla absolute oil solution, possibly some tonka etc so I think in the end I will have enough solution to give it the weight needed for blending.

 

[Bill Roberts]

By the amount being too little, I mean the calculated amount needed would be less than say 50 times (more preferably 100 times) the smallest increment that your scale reads. So if the scale reads to say 0.01 g, then if your formula would call for less than 0.50 g of material diluted to 10%, I'd instead add ten times more material that was at 1%, to get a reasonably precise weighing.

Yes, you can skip dilution in alcohol.

Or, if you have no intent ever to dissolve in oil, you can dilute straight into ethanol in the first place. Your choice.

Yes, you could follow your above formula, but I think you'd find the ethyl vanillin far too strong. As personal opinion for most formulations, the ethyl vanillin should probably come to no more than 3% of the formula. Here it's at 10% while everything else is at 25%. So you could have 2.5 times more, or 7.5% of the more diluted material as a guess of a max. Call it 8% for convenience.

You could then have:

Neroli 25% 46
Blood Orange 25% 46
Ethyl vanillin 10% 8

Of course, see what works for you, but as an illustration.

 

[stylez_911]

Thanks so much for helping me understand that.

If I did decide to dilute the ethyl vanillin crystals into perfumer's alcohol directly without using a solvent such as DPG or IPM, what would be a safe concentration for that, if I was to say create a 1 oz. solution? Of course, because of it's strength, I would introduce much less of this solution to the blend then the other solutions being used, but would you say 10% is safe?

Another question I have is whether a 10% ethyl vanillin solution using DPG as a solvent is soluble in carrier oils such as fractionated coconut oil or rice bran oil? Since the ethyl vanillin crystals may not be soluble directly into the carrier oil, would the DPG solution help with this?

Further, as far as fixitive isolates go, such as benzyl benzoate, nerolidol etc., would I need to create 20% concentrations of those in DPG or alcohol similar to the other solutions we've been discussing?

I purchased those isolates from the Perfumer's Apprentice recently and once I receive them, it would be great to know how to prep those solutions for my blends.

I am beginning to understand everything, so thanks very much for all of your fantastic feedback and clarifications. I know that it must be a bit tedious answering all these questions, but I truly appreciate you helping.

 

[stylez_911]

As general rules of thumb, I was just wondering if you can help confirm the following with regards to formulating concentrations of ethyl vanillin crystal dilutions as well as EO's / FO's, Absolute Oils etc. just as a slight recap of what we've discussed:

1) EO's, FO's & AO's are all soluble in Fractionated Coconut Oil (Carrier Oil)

2) EO's, FO's & AO's are all soluble in Perfumer's Alcohol (for alcohol-based fragrances)

3) Fractionated Coconut Oil Solutions (25% concentration of EO/FO/AO) are soluble in Perfumer's Alcohol

4) Ethyl Vanillin Crystals are NOT soluble directly in carrier oils such as Fractionated Coconut Oil, unless pre-diluted in a solvent such as IPM first (as DPG does not work well)

5) Ethyl Vanillin Crystals are soluble directly in Perfumer's Alcohol directly OR via solvents such as IPM or DPG

6) Isolates and Fixatives such as Benzyl Benzoate and Nerolidol are soluble in Fractionated Coconut Oil and Perfumer's Alcohol, and solutions can be made at 25% concentrations for blending with other solutions in a formula.

 

[Bill Roberts]

1) True for essential oils and absolutes, true for fragrance oils that contain little to no DPG, but not true of fragrance oils that do (there may be some other problem solvents such as triethyl citrate, but I don't know.)

2) True, except there are reports of some poor quality fragrance oils giving problem.

3) Somewhat true: some FCO will dissolve into perfumer's alcohol, but I don't know how much. It's not much.

4) Untrue, ethyl vanillin will dissolve into FCO at some substantial percentage, and at anything needed for a final product.

5) True

6) True

if you would like to have a double set of stock solutions, one diluted with FCO and one with ethanol, then there's no need for an IPM set. An IPM dilution, in most cases, would be for the reason of having the option to use in either alcohol or FCO.

Btw, not that there's a need to do as I do, but for the most part I run two sets and have only a few things in IPM.

 

[stylez_911]

That makes perfect sense to me, and I think that having a double set would be quite useful.

Now, I have a question for you with regards to Fractionated Coconut Oil vs Rice Bran Oil.

I currently have FCO, but I hear that there are great benefits of using Rice Bran Oil as well.

I have read that Rice Bran Oil does not absorb quite as fast as FCO and has benefits for UV protection and is non-greasy on application. Would that actually contribute to giving an oil-based fragrance greater staying power due to not being absorbed as readily as FCO?

With regards to your comment about Ethyl Vanillin being soluble in a carrier oil (such as FCO), what percentage would likely allow me to create a 10% dilution for use as a solution for oil-based blends?

If I can create a stock ethyl vanillin solution by dissolving the ethyl vanillin crystals directly into FCO (or any other carrier oil you can recommend) without IPM, then I would most certainly believe that would solve my greatest issue here. Now that I know that EV is soluble in Perfumer's Alcohol directly, then i'm good to go on that end if I decide to create an alcohol based fragrance. If EV is soluble in FCO, I will create a separate stock solution that way for my oil-based fragrances.

Can you possibly recommend a safe concentration ratio for diluting Ethyl Vanillin with FCO according to a particular reference weight of the overall solution that you believe would be enough for weighing? By that I mean, if I wanted to have a 2 oz. Ethyl Vanillin / FCO stock solution, would 2 oz. allow for solubility, where 10% of the 2 oz. is the Ethyl Vanillin and the remaining 90% is FCO? Or would I need to go beyond that for it to be soluble?

This is all really starting to come together now in terms of understanding how the puzzle pieces will fit, so now it's just the matter of figuring out concentrations for each component, buying a good scale, creating the stock solutions, and experimenting. How exciting!

 

[Bill Roberts]

Most oils go rancid after a whil; FCO does not.

I don't have experience with rice bran oil.

For what sort of dilution would be needed, if someone is thinking of running some ingredients at near numbers in a range such as 20-40% of formulation or more, as in your example, and other materials at for example only 2-4% or something like that, then often it makes sense to run those small-percentage materials at a lower concentration.

However, if you like making substantial amounts at once, you might not need to do that. Let's say that your scale reads to 0.001 g (so, it's probably correct to within plus or minus .003 g or thereabouts) and you like making 10 grams of concentrate at a time.

Then, if a material is 1% of the formula, you'll need 100 mg of it.

Your scale will easily measure that amount with good precision. So it would not need to be more diluted than the other materials, which would be weighed out in amounts of several grams.

 

[David Ruskin]

You could. However you would have problems if wanting to add much of that to an fractionated coconut oil formula, as not much would mix.

If diluting into ethanol, you might want a higher concentration such as 5%. I only happen to have it at 1% myself.

I would try both vanillin and ethyl vanillin to see what you like. Ethyl vanillin is I think more common in perfumery; one reason is that it has less tendency to discolor the formula. They smell a little different, see what works for you.

Sorry Bill, not true. Ethyl Vanillin discolours just like vanillin. Vanillin and Ethyl Vanillin are as commonly used as each other. They do smell different. Ethyl Vanillin is stronger, and has a more synthetic creamy smell.

 

[David Ruskin]

To the OP. If all you wish to do is make a mx of Essential Oils with a touch of Vanillin added; why not just mix your Oils and add Vanillin to the mix? Try on a small scale to see if the Vanillin will dissolve, if it doesn't then you will have to make a solution of it first, but if it does then problem solved.

 

[I.D.Adam]

Have you thought about using natural vanilla absolute? Apparently it will dissolve in oils and it has a very round, full vanilla scent profile without being super sweet. Downside of course is cost.

 

[Bill Roberts]

Sorry Bill, not true. Ethyl Vanillin discolours just like vanillin. Vanillin and Ethyl Vanillin are as commonly used as each other. They do smell different. Ethyl Vanillin is stronger, and has a more synthetic creamy smell.

Thank you David! I was misinformed that ethyl vanillin supposedly discolored a little less, and had wrong impression on frequency of use from formulas read. Doubly wrong: it doesn't get much worse except for triply and past. Your correction is much appreciated!

 

[Chris Bartlett]

Thank you David! I was misinformed that ethyl vanillin supposedly discolored a little less, and had wrong impression on frequency of use from formulas read. Doubly wrong: it doesn't get much worse except for triply and past. Your correction is much appreciated!

I’m very late to this thread (sorry - have been neglecting Basenotes of late), so I’m not going to try to answer the shopping list of questions it started with but just focus on this bit: the misunderstanding might have arisen because ethyl vanillin is so much stronger smelling than vanillin, it means you can get a bit more vanilla odour for a given amount of discolouration.

However a better solution would be to use isobutavan (vanillin isobutyrate) which is much less discolouring and gives a lovely creamy note too. For white candles or soaps etc this is much more suitable.

 

[Bill Roberts]

Thank you Chris! That indeed makes sense.

While I haven't included it in a final formulation yet, Christine provided me with a vanillin propylene glycol acetal sample, which I wanted for a cosmetic application where I expected vanillin or ethyl vanillin would be lost to Schiff base formation. Very nice product which may be another way to avoid the discoloration issue. It's not easily available though, so mentioned more for possible interest rather than usefulness for the OP.

 

[David Ruskin]

Thank you David! I was misinformed that ethyl vanillin supposedly discolored a little less, and had wrong impression on frequency of use from formulas read. Doubly wrong: it doesn't get much worse except for triply and past. Your correction is much appreciated!

I guess as Ethyl Vanillin is stronger than Vanillin (some folk say 10 times as throng), you can use less and so get less discolouration.

 

[Bill Roberts]

However a better solution would be to use isobutavan (vanillin isobutyrate) which is much less discolouring and gives a lovely creamy note too. For white candles or soaps etc this is much more suitable.

Checking the organoleptics as well as considering your description, this sounds like it might do well for me in some instances, I'll give it a try. Thank you!

 

[Chris Bartlett]

Thank you Chris! That indeed makes sense.

While I haven't included it in a final formulation yet, Christine provided me with a vanillin propylene glycol acetal sample, which I wanted for a cosmetic application where I expected vanillin or ethyl vanillin would be lost to Schiff base formation. Very nice product which may be another way to avoid the discoloration issue. It's not easily available though, so mentioned more for possible interest rather than usefulness for the OP.

I’m not familiar with vanillin propylene glycol acetal so I don’t know whether it would be better or worse than Isobutavan. I can’t remember which but I think the Schiff’s Base of either vanillin or ethyl vanillin is bright red - so much so that it’s been used as a dye...

 

[stylez_911]

To the OP. If all you wish to do is make a mx of Essential Oils with a touch of Vanillin added; why not just mix your Oils and add Vanillin to the mix? Try on a small scale to see if the Vanillin will dissolve, if it doesn't then you will have to make a solution of it first, but if it does then problem solved.

Thanks very much David, that does sound like an option; however, I think it would be very convenient to have an oil-based Ethyl Vanillin solution, as well as an alcohol-based solution for quick access.

In your experience, do you have a particular dilution % that you would recommend for both?

My goal is to create a creamy, freshly baked vanilla accord similar to that found in Guerlain's Spiritueuse Double Vanille. I own the fragrance and after a few days of drydown on clothing, all is left is the vanillin sweet vanilla scent, which has led me to believe that Ethyl Vanillin is present in their vanilla accord. Granted, Guerlain is a powerhouse and have their own trade secrets, I am hoping to at least create a comparable vanilla accord that I can use as a base for other blends with other ingredients, using that vanilla accord in the background.

So I think a dilution of Ethyl Vanillin in both FCO or Perfumer's Alcohol would at least allow me to add that note to create the overall accord i'm going for.

Any suggestions on dilution % on that front? Given that Ethyl Vanillin is stronger? I like the creaminess of EV, so i'm not sure diluting regular Vanillin is even necessary.