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Diluting beeswax absolute

Thioacetone

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Sep 7, 2022
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5% sounds right to me. I have a working dilution of beeswax absolute that I keep at 10%, but it quickly solidifies at room temperature and needs to be heated before it can be used. I never really have a problem with the material once it’s in a blend, though—I’ve had the absolute as high as 2.5% in a final product with no visible waxes.
Interesting. My second batch of beeswax absolute is soluble at room temperature at 20% concentration in ethanol (could be even higher but I haven't tested yet). This makes me suspect your product contains a lot of wax if it is solidifying at room temperature at 10%.
I added an extra freezing and filtration step midway through ethanol evaporation in making the second batch which removed a lot of wax.
 

pkiler

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Dec 5, 2007
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Finally, I have pure undiluted Beeswax Absolute, and at a much better price than I have been paying for diluted, or was offered at pure... YAY!
 

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enfantarribla

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Jul 7, 2022
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Finally, I have pure undiluted Beeswax Absolute, and at a much better price than I have been paying for diluted, or was offered at pure... YAY!
Apologies for posting this on this thread but I couldn’t find an option for posting a new thread. I’d wanting to ask about the same material so figured this should be fine.
I’m also wondering, if PK might tell me which Beeswax you mean in particular? I’d read, especially in your comments how indispensable Beeswax was for florals, for example so finally got some. The Biolandes one. It was almost twice cheaper than the Robertet, but I’ll be getting that one as well.
The reviews for the Biolandes were great so I figured I’d be fine w that one.
While I realized it won’t really smell much at all of honey, I wasn’t ready for what it does smell like. Not very pleasant and certainly not at all sweet.
I’d be very grateful to hear from others if there’s a great difference between the 2 mentioned. I adore Robertet in general as probably everyone else. However their Beeswax abs is rather pricey so I’d love to know in advance if there’s indeed much difference in the aroma?
I tried diluting the Biolandes, in hopes of getting something less intense at least, and used DPG, which I now. Find out wasn’t the right solvent😳, which is (hopefully) the reason for the smell not improving at all other than getting weaker. Where am I going wrong, other than that?
 

Solua Botanica

Well-known member
Oct 11, 2022
349
423
I have both absolutes you mention and they are quite different from each other, just as every beeswax absolute is unique.
There's quite a few more in my drawers and 2 of those that I made. They are all unique in their own way.
One I made from Eurasian bees is so particular. These bees cover the whole hive with propolis, this one turned out dark burgundy red and is almost a hybrid propolis/beeswax abs. So strong and animalic, it doesn't even remind me of beeswax.
Beeswax is such a unique material that ends up smelling like the hive it came from. To 'standardize' beeswax abs. would be very hard.
It definitely needs to be diluted to be evaluated properly, it is so dense and goopy that until you 'open' it up, you won't realize just how complex it is. You're in for a treat when you start blending with it, there are so many magic things it can do.
Don't predilute it. Just add to your blends pure. A well made absolute should dissolve entirely into your concentrate.
 

pkiler

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Dec 5, 2007
13,541
2,350
Apologies for posting this on this thread but I couldn’t find an option for posting a new thread. I’d wanting to ask about the same material so figured this should be fine.
I’m also wondering, if PK might tell me which Beeswax you mean in particular? I’d read, especially in your comments how indispensable Beeswax was for florals, for example so finally got some. The Biolandes one. It was almost twice cheaper than the Robertet, but I’ll be getting that one as well.
The reviews for the Biolandes were great so I figured I’d be fine w that one.
While I realized it won’t really smell much at all of honey, I wasn’t ready for what it does smell like. Not very pleasant and certainly not at all sweet.
I’d be very grateful to hear from others if there’s a great difference between the 2 mentioned. I adore Robertet in general as probably everyone else. However their Beeswax abs is rather pricey so I’d love to know in advance if there’s indeed much difference in the aroma?
I tried diluting the Biolandes, in hopes of getting something less intense at least, and used DPG, which I now. Find out wasn’t the right solvent😳, which is (hopefully) the reason for the smell not improving at all other than getting weaker. Where am I going wrong, other than that?
Let's start with that my first purchase of beeswax absolute was at CP. And it was a very long time ago.
But I do remember that it was a thick fluid. I reordered from CP after the business sale, and got something other than I remembered, so I asked what the dilution rate was of the previous, and the current product. Alora sent something, some information, which I don't remember.
But honestly, my first purchase of the Beeswax absolute was in an era when all of the retailers selling materials were learning about all of this, just as much as we buyers were learning, and so, perfect information isn't always as reliable as we might hope.
It is very clear that Alora at CP, Perfumers Apprentice, and Christine at PSH have very much tightened up on proper information, documentation, and this situation is much much improved than when I began Perfumery. Also, information has been tightened up at their suppliers, like John D Walsh, than when I started - improvements all around.

But what that means to me is that I needed to obtain pure Beeswax absolute, to dilute myself, to know the exact ratios, for myself, because I used that beeswax absolute in several formulas, which include my new and shortly to be released honeysuckle base for PSH, and I REALLY need to know the absolute dilution rate from a pure state, no more messing around, especially when pure beeswax absolute is not a fluid, but a very solid sculptable lump at room temp.

But I went over the heads of the normal suppliers of Eden Botanicals, PA, CP, PSH, The Perfumery, and other sellers in small amounts, and bought from Citrus and Allied, which no doubt buys directly from the same producers that Biolandes and Robertet are also buying from, and hence, I got a better price per gram. As I do not have the raw materials from either Biolandes or Robertet, I cannot say which it is like, but I seem to remember that it is likely most like, or is the same as, the Biolandes product. I can see that CP is selling theirs from SAS MATIÈRES PREMIÈRES ESSENTIELLES, bought through John D Walsh Co. It is a fluid, and the SDS from the supplier SAS MATIÈRES PREMIÈRES ESSENTIELLES does not state the dilution rate, but clearly it is diluted. Alora likely told me when I asked her to find out for me, but I have forgotten.

But with pure, I now have a baseline for dilution rates without questions. And it is of very good quality.

Beeswax absolute is not sweet, nor on the top, it is a middle bottom to bottom note material.
I found this book chapter most helpful to understand the composition of Beeswax, and therefore the composition of beeswax absolute after processing. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/304012435_Beeswax_Production_Properties_Composition_Control
If you read through the chapter in the book above, then you may begin to understand a lot more about the chemical makeup that makes beeswax what it is, and also how to understand that it is not really that sweet, or a topnote.

I see that Eden Botanicals also sells Beeswax Absolute, which is the Biolandes products, since Biolandes owns Eden.

I hope that this has provided some enlightenment for your quest for information,
PK
 

jfrater

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Jun 2, 2005
3,084
1,981
I have some beeswax absolute here from MPE which arrived this week. I also have an old tub from White Lotus before they retired - I don't know who their supplier is.

Here's a photo of the two. The MPE product is paste like and stains when you rub it pure on the hand. It has an intense scent with an almost yeasty quality (somewhat like marmite or vegemite if you are familiar with those foods). The White Lotus is more of a wax like consistency. It doesn't really stain when applied and it has a far more distinctly wax-like scent. It is the softer of the two and it is the one I prefer. I would like to find out the supplier to White Lotus - though at least I know it is not MPE obviously.

PXL_20230329_072032243.jpg
 

enfantarribla

New member
Jul 7, 2022
20
5
I have both absolutes you mention and they are quite different from each other, just as every beeswax absolute is unique.
There's quite a few more in my drawers and 2 of those that I made. They are all unique in their own way.
One I made from Eurasian bees is so particular. These bees cover the whole hive with propolis, this one turned out dark burgundy red and is almost a hybrid propolis/beeswax abs. So strong and animalic, it doesn't even remind me of beeswax.
Beeswax is such a unique material that ends up smelling like the hive it came from. To 'standardize' beeswax abs. would be very hard.
It definitely needs to be diluted to be evaluated properly, it is so dense and goopy that until you 'open' it up, you won't realize just how complex it is. You're in for a treat when you start blending with it, there are so many magic things it can do.
Don't predilute it. Just add to your blends pure. A well made absolute should dissolve entirely into your concentrate.
Thank you so much for this. If you could try and describe the difference between the Biolandes and Robertet, what might it be, please? Or if I can hopefully put it this way, is the Robertet more pleasant? Wax, beeswax, sounded like it’d be such a lovely material I couldn’t wait to get it. I’ll be sure to follow your advice and not pre dilute for a blend. May I ask if you could recommend a good place (blend) to start getting to know it? I’ll be diluting in a few. It does sound fascinating, especially the way you present it. Thank you again!
 

Culpa Ire

Active member
Nov 11, 2022
203
229
Have you tried the Biolandes material in a blend yet?

Ed : Apologies. You seek advice on that, so probably not. Perhaps try it alongside a honey base (Honey Signature is good) and a few vanilla materials. Keep it simple and do one with, one without to determine the effect of the beeswax.
 

enfantarribla

New member
Jul 7, 2022
20
5
Let's start with that my first purchase of beeswax absolute was at CP. And it was a very long time ago.
But I do remember that it was a thick fluid. I reordered from CP after the business sale, and got something other than I remembered, so I asked what the dilution rate was of the previous, and the current product. Alora sent something, some information, which I don't remember.
But honestly, my first purchase of the Beeswax absolute was in an era when all of the retailers selling materials were learning about all of this, just as much as we buyers were learning, and so, perfect information isn't always as reliable as we might hope.
It is very clear that Alora at CP, Perfumers Apprentice, and Christine at PSH have very much tightened up on proper information, documentation, and this situation is much much improved than when I began Perfumery. Also, information has been tightened up at their suppliers, like John D Walsh, than when I started - improvements all around.

But what that means to me is that I needed to obtain pure Beeswax absolute, to dilute myself, to know the exact ratios, for myself, because I used that beeswax absolute in several formulas, which include my new and shortly to be released honeysuckle base for PSH, and I REALLY need to know the absolute dilution rate from a pure state, no more messing around, especially when pure beeswax absolute is not a fluid, but a very solid sculptable lump at room temp.

But I went over the heads of the normal suppliers of Eden Botanicals, PA, CP, PSH, The Perfumery, and other sellers in small amounts, and bought from Citrus and Allied, which no doubt buys directly from the same producers that Biolandes and Robertet are also buying from, and hence, I got a better price per gram. As I do not have the raw materials from either Biolandes or Robertet, I cannot say which it is like, but I seem to remember that it is likely most like, or is the same as, the Biolandes product. I can see that CP is selling theirs from SAS MATIÈRES PREMIÈRES ESSENTIELLES, bought through John D Walsh Co. It is a fluid, and the SDS from the supplier SAS MATIÈRES PREMIÈRES ESSENTIELLES does not state the dilution rate, but clearly it is diluted. Alora likely told me when I asked her to find out for me, but I have forgotten.

But with pure, I now have a baseline for dilution rates without questions. And it is of very good quality.

Beeswax absolute is not sweet, nor on the top, it is a middle bottom to bottom note material.
I found this book chapter most helpful to understand the composition of Beeswax, and therefore the composition of beeswax absolute after processing. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/304012435_Beeswax_Production_Properties_Composition_Control
If you read through the chapter in the book above, then you may begin to understand a lot more about the chemical makeup that makes beeswax what it is, and also how to understand that it is not really that sweet, or a topnote.

I see that Eden Botanicals also sells Beeswax Absolute, which is the Biolandes products, since Biolandes owns Eden.

I hope that this has provided some enlightenment for your quest for information,
PK
Should be interesting to find out whether the one Eden offers, being owned by Biolandes (a curious fact as well), is the very same I mentioned I got. I remember it was surprisingly cheap at Eden’s as well.
While off the topic I wanted to mention how much I came to love your Tuberose base. It’s astounding to me how for a pretty long while I wasn’t feeling Tuberose at all, while now, it’s got Tuberose all over it! Really exceptional material!
I don’t want to further hijack the thread but I’d love to hear your suggestions of how to put it to best use. I find it magical at this point.
 

enfantarribla

New member
Jul 7, 2022
20
5
Have you tried the Biolandes material in a blend yet?

Ed : Apologies. You seek advice on that, so probably not.
No apologies necessary at all! But what blend might you suggest? Or perhaps since ave read PK mention it in florals, I wonder which. Heck, I should just try it w any. Orange Flower sounds like a good start, I’d imagine.
 

Culpa Ire

Active member
Nov 11, 2022
203
229
I made an edit to my post with a suggestion. I almost wrote out something that will make the Biolandes material shine but refrained. In part because it's best to keep it simple, but mostly because I'd be giving away a large chunk of a formula by doing so. Sweet and floral are useful directions with beeswax, but it can also be dragged into a tobacco accord with relative ease. Play to its animalic side.
 

Solua Botanica

Well-known member
Oct 11, 2022
349
423
If you could try and describe the difference between the Biolandes and Robertet
I'll do my best, there's so many nuances I could pick out, but I'll keep it simple.
The Robertet has this very edible quality, it is rich and sweet but light and floral also.
Great gourmand quality in blends. Touch of buckwheat honey.
The Biolandes is a little more dry and waxy, also more animalic than the Robertet.
I use that one more since it has less of a gourmand aspect. I can fit it more places.
May I ask if you could recommend a good place (blend) to start getting to know it?

Floral, gourmand, tobacco, chypre, woody. It has this magical ability to tie things together.
Start with low dosages in simple formulas, so you can really smell its complexity.
It can also be used in place of a musk to see how it affects the whole.
I recently added some to a fougère formula that felt incomplete.
Some notes were clashing and the lavender was muted. A little touch of absolute solved things me me.
The lavender became so real and the coumarin gained this tonka abs. quality.
It affected top and mid notes positively and the formula felt more 'cohesive' than before.
 

pkiler

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Dec 5, 2007
13,541
2,350
No apologies necessary at all! But what blend might you suggest? Or perhaps since ave read PK mention it in florals, I wonder which. Heck, I should just try it w any. Orange Flower sounds like a good start, I’d imagine.
Beeswax absolute in a 1% solution, figures into a very nice rose base at between 1-4% of the formula.
Can certainly figure into many/several more florals bases...
 

pkiler

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Dec 5, 2007
13,541
2,350
I came to love your Tuberose base. It’s astounding to me how for a pretty long while I wasn’t feeling Tuberose at all, while now, it’s got Tuberose all over it! Really exceptional material!
I don’t want to further hijack the thread but I’d love to hear your suggestions of how to put it to best use. I find it magical at this point.
I'll put my thoughts for you into my own Tuberose bases thread, https://basenotes.com/threads/tuberose-bases-and-thoughts-from-pk.482388/page-2#post-5875022
 

enfantarribla

New member
Jul 7, 2022
20
5
I'll do my best, there's so many nuances I could pick out, but I'll keep it simple.
The Robertet has this very edible quality, it is rich and sweet but light and floral also.
Great gourmand quality in blends. Touch of buckwheat honey.
The Biolandes is a little more dry and waxy, also more animalic than the Robertet.
I use that one more since it has less of a gourmand aspect. I can fit it more places.


Floral, gourmand, tobacco, chypre, woody. It has this magical ability to tie things together.
Start with low dosages in simple formulas, so you can really smell its complexity.
It can also be used in place of a musk to see how it affects the whole.
I recently added some to a fougère formula that felt incomplete.
Some notes were clashing and the lavender was muted. A little touch of absolute solved things me me.
The lavender became so real and the coumarin gained this tonka abs. quality.
It affected top and mid notes positively and the formula felt more 'cohesive' than before.
That’s what I wanted to hear about the Robertet I’ll definitely now be getting, although your description of working w the Biolandes makes me feel I’ll find good use for it, very hopefully.
Have you tried the Biolandes material in a blend yet?

Ed : Apologies. You seek advice on that, so probably not. Perhaps try it alongside a honey base (Honey Signature is good) and a few vanilla materials. Keep it simple and do one with, one without to determine the effect of the beeswax.
that’s super helpful and will do. Thank you!
 

Frimel frags

New member
Oct 11, 2022
3
0
5% sounds right to me. I have a working dilution of beeswax absolute that I keep at 10%, but it quickly solidifies at room temperature and needs to be heated before it can be used. I never really have a problem with the material once it’s in a blend, though—I’ve had the absolute as high as 2.5% in a final product with no visible waxes.
2.5% of the concentrate or in the final perfume in ethanol?
 

enfantarribla

New member
Jul 7, 2022
20
5
I got my Biolandes Beeswax on the “operating” table, along w the one I diluted w DPG, which I became certain was a mistake, after reading here only Ethanol will do. Lo and behold it looks very much diluted to me w the DPG!
Not much change in smell, nor all that weaker.
I now wonder if since it’s obviously well diluted already, straight from the manufacturer, DPG appears to be working.
Unless it’s not actually diluting it but is blending seamlessly somehow?!
What up w that, pretty plz?
 

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