Difference between Amberxan (from PCW) and Ambroxide

[deroudist]

Hi Guys,

yesterday i received a bigger order from PCW. One thing that i ordered was 250g of Amberxan (thats how they list it). It has the same CAS# as Ambroxan and Ambroxide.
In the past i have used Ambroxide and also incorporated it in my perfumes that i have released so far.

Is it normal, that eventhough it shares the same identical CAS# as to say Ambroxide, their smells in its raw-state (from the crystals) are completely different? Ambroxide smells faintly sweet with a bit of an salty odeur to me. So does Ambrox Super (which i also have) for example. Amberxan from PCW smells like paint-thinner to me.

I have tested both in identical samples of a perfume and the one with Amberxan seems to be flatter without the lift that the sample with ambroxide has. Has anyone else experienced this before?

 

[mnitabach]

My understanding is that these ambrox materials with the same CAS # & molecular formula can have big differences in stereoisomer composition depending on the manufacturer & method of manufacture.

 

[Alex F.]

I have a thing for amber-materials, but this is the first time I'm hearing about Amberxan.
I love the beautiful floral aspect of it, but dislike the painful woody aspect that some of the stronger amber-materials (Cedramber, Norlimbanol, Karanal, ...) show.
With Molecule 02 (which, I take it, is Kao's Ambroxan), all I get initially is a whiff of this annoying piercing wood. The ambergris-aspect only shows itself after it's breathed for a while (but then it lasts forever). (If I open the box and smell at the bottle, I also get a paint thinner-like smell.)
That's why I prefer Ambrox DL and Ambrox Super, because with them the ambergris-aspect is there from the beginning.
Do you know Molecule 02/Ambroxan? Does it smell similar to Amberxan? My guess is that Amberxan is closer to it than to the others. My advice: Prepare a dilution, spray it on a scent strip or a piece of tissue paper, let it breathe for a while and see how the smell develops.

 

[mnitabach]

I have a thing for amber-materials, but this is the first time I'm hearing about Amberxan.
I love the beautiful floral aspect of it, but dislike the painful woody aspect that some of the stronger amber-materials (Cedramber, Norlimbanol, Karanal, ...) show.
With Molecule 02 (which, I take it, is Kao's Ambroxan), all I get initially is a whiff of this annoying piercing wood. The ambergris-aspect only shows itself after it's breathed for a while (but then it lasts forever).
That's why I prefer Ambrox DL and Ambrox Super, because with them the ambergris-aspect is there from the beginning.
Do you know Molecule 02/Ambroxan? Does it smell similar to Amberxan? My guess is that Amberxan is closer to it than to the others. My advice: Prepare a dilution, spray it on a scent strip or a piece of tissue paper, let it breathe for a while and see how the smell develops.

I suppose it is possible that these temporal evolutions of the scent character of ambrox materials is due to different tenacity of different stereoisomers?

 

[Alex F.]

I suppose it is possible that these temporal evolutions of the scent character of ambrox materials is due to different tenacity of different stereoisomers?

🤷‍♂️ That's one of my theories, too. Another one is that some ambrox-materials have to undergo a molecular change first, before they reveal their beautiful aspect. But that's just speculation (based on what I've observed with clary sage oil and ambrinol).

 

[santeripe]

I have a thing for amber-materials, but this is the first time I'm hearing about Amberxan.
I love the beautiful floral aspect of it, but dislike the painful woody aspect that some of the stronger amber-materials (Cedramber, Norlimbanol, Karanal, ...) show.
With Molecule 02 (which, I take it, is Kao's Ambroxan), all I get initially is a whiff of this annoying piercing wood. The ambergris-aspect only shows itself after it's breathed for a while (but then it lasts forever). (If I open the box and smell at the bottle, I also get a paint thinner-like smell.)
That's why I prefer Ambrox DL and Ambrox Super, because with them the ambergris-aspect is there from the beginning.
Do you know Molecule 02/Ambroxan? Does it smell similar to Amberxan? My guess is that Amberxan is closer to it than to the others. My advice: Prepare a dilution, spray it on a scent strip or a piece of tissue paper, let it breathe for a while and see how the smell develops.

Many of Molecule 02's properties can be explained by it having a lot of DPG and Isopropyl Myristate. This isn't emphasized enough when people talk about it. Heavier solvents can significantly decrease the rate of evaporation, thus making the scent of Ambroxan less overwhelming. Just like lowering the Ambroxan percentage does.

So a 5% dilution of Ambroxan can be made to smell as pleasant on skin as a 1% dilution by replacing some ethanol with DPG. But it'll last way longer and ultimately behave differently than a 1% solution would.

 

[mnitabach]

🤷‍♂️ That's one of my theories, too. Another one is that some ambrox-materials have to undergo a molecular change first, before they reveal their beautiful aspect. But that's just speculation (based on what I've observed with clary sage oil and ambrinol).

What possible molecular change do you think could be occurring with ambrox molecules?

 

[Alex F.]

What possible molecular change do you think could be occurring with ambrox molecules?

I haven't developed the thought much further and I'm not in the habit of looking at molecules and divining how they might change. It could be a matter of thresholds and cross-adaption (and personal sensitivity), but it just seems strange to me that the dry woody odour should at first so completely blot out the the more beautiful floral-erotic one, only letting it slip though gradually, until, after several hours, the beautiful one finally finally starts to take the upper hand - and then it remains there on the paper for weeks. (This is my experience with Molecule 02.)

 

[mnitabach]

I haven't developed the thought much further. It just seems strange to me that the dry woody odour should at first so completely blot out the the more beautiful floral-erotic one, only letting it slip though gradually, until, after several hours, the beautiful one finally finally starts to take the upper hand - and then it remains there on the paper for weeks. (This is my experience with Molecule 02.)

IMO the two vastly more likely mechanisms for this than some sort of mysterious chemical reaction are (1) different tenacities of different isomers/stereoisomers or even impurities and/or (2) high concentrations of the molecule activate lower-affinity olfactory receptors that underly the dry-woody facets & as it evaporates the floral-erotic effects mediated by higher-affinity receptors are revealed.

 

[Alex F.]

IMO the two vastly more likely mechanisms for this than some sort of mysterious chemical reaction are (1) different tenacities of different isomers/stereoisomers or even impurities and/or (2) high concentrations of the molecule activate lower-affinity olfactory receptors that underly the dry-woody facets & as it evaporates the floral-erotic effects mediated by higher-affinity receptors are revealed.

Agreed, the receptor-side theory is the more likely one.

 

[mnitabach]

Agreed, the receptor-side theory is the more likely one.

Perhaps because I'm a biophysicist & physiologist, my Occam's Razor assumption is that weird mysterious unknown olfactory biophysics and/or physiology is a lot more likely to underly weird perfumery shit than weird mysterious unknown chemistry... 😹 😹 😹

 

[Alex F.]

Perhaps because I'm a biophysicist & physiologist, my Occam's Razor assumption is that weird mysterious unknown olfactory biophysics and/or physiology is a lot more likely to underly weird perfumery shit than weird mysterious unknown chemistry... 😹 😹 😹

It's the other way round for me. 😄 I've read quite a bit about the supposed workings of the olfactory system, but it's still a mystery to me. (By the way, the best book I've read on the subject so far - content wise, not style-wise - is Trygg Engen's The perception of odours from 1982. It's not so much about theories as it is about the difficulties.)

 

[deroudist]

Thanks for your answers. I will continue to work with the material and try to see if there are really differences.

 

[julimdmor]

Many of Molecule 02's properties can be explained by it having a lot of DPG and Isopropyl Myristate. This isn't emphasized enough when people talk about it. Heavier solvents can significantly decrease the rate of evaporation, thus making the scent of Ambroxan less overwhelming. Just like lowering the Ambroxan percentage does.

So a 5% dilution of Ambroxan can be made to smell as pleasant on skin as a 1% dilution by replacing some ethanol with DPG. But it'll last way longer and ultimately behave differently than a 1% solution would.

Hello.

I've just made a homemade molecule 02, with this formulation:

1/5 - 10% Ambermor (IFF) diluted in DPG
4/5 - Grain alcohol

Basicly is a solution of 2% Ambroxan.
When I tried, right after making it, I thought the scent was very close to the original molecule 02 BUT without it's projecting and performance. Then I told myself "well...maybe needs maceration".
I left it for 6 weeks to macerate BUT, after testing it again, the issues with longevity didn't get better enough.
I'm searching for something that could help with this. I don't know if the fact of not using water on formulation afect it. I don’t know it’s caused by low concentration of Ambroxan or high concentration of dpg

 

[mnitabach]

Hello.

I've just made a homemade molecule 02, with this formulation:

1/5 - 10% Ambermor (IFF) diluted in DPG
4/5 - Grain alcohol

Basicly is a solution of 2% Ambroxan.
When I tried, right after making it, I thought the scent was very close to the original molecule 02 BUT without it's projecting and performance. Then I told myself "well...maybe needs maceration".
I left it for 6 weeks to macerate BUT, after testing it again, the issues with longevity didn't get better enough.
I'm searching for something that could help with this. I don't know if the fact of not using water on formulation afect it. I don’t know it’s caused by low concentration of Ambroxan or high concentration of dpg

You posted this identical question on Friday & were already given the answer: this is vastly lower total ambrox concentration than in molecule 02. Why are you asking again?

 

[deroudist]

I can conclude that the Amberxan from PCW performs the same way that my other Ambroxan Materials do. The smell in its raw state however is different. But in a formulation they smell 99% alike.

 

[julimdmor]

You posted this identical question on Friday & were already given the answer: this is vastly lower total ambrox concentration than in molecule 02. Why are you asking again?

Thank you, but I posted the question replying to a different approach comparing to the answers I got on my post last week. In this case Santeripe
Mentioned 5% concentration and mentioned DPG to hold it evaporates quickly. I’m trying to collect many information as I could to fix my problem! Thank you for remind me 🙂!

 

[mnitabach]

Thank you, but I posted the question replying to a different approach comparing to the answers I got on my post last week. In this case Santeripe
Mentioned 5% concentration and mentioned DPG to hold it evaporates quickly. I’m trying to collect many information as I could to fix my problem! Thank you for remind me 🙂!

There is no more information to collect & the only way forward is for you to obtain pure ambrox material. Then you can make much more concentrated versions, comparing with & without DPG or other solvents (I recommend also trying DEP & benzyl benzoate).

 

[julimdmor]

There is no more information to collect & the only way forward is for you to obtain pure ambrox material. Then you can make much more concentrated versions, comparing with & without DPG or other solvents (I recommend also trying DEP & benzyl benzoate).

mnitabach thcnak you for all your tips. I just get some ambermor ex (IFF) crystals on sunday and made 3 samples diluted on ethanol: with 10%, 13% and 15%. I'll let macerate for a few weeks and I'll come back to tell the results.
Thank you so much again!

 

[mnitabach]

mnitabach thcnak you for all your tips. I just get some ambermor ex (IFF) crystals on sunday and made 3 samples diluted on ethanol: with 10%, 13% and 15%. I'll let macerate for a few weeks and I'll come back to tell the results.
Thank you so much again!

I mean if you want to understand the effect of concentration on performance, those three versions are too close together. Much more informative would be comparing 1%, 2%, 4%, 8%, 16% (or whatever is saturating). And for pure ambrox in EtOH, there is no purpose to macerating.