Can you guys clear up ambergris vs. amber?

[bpl12]

I've always been under the impression that ambergris was the vomited-up substance that a whale produces to break down hard solids in its belly, like crab claws, squid beaks, etc. And that amber is a synthetic accord comprised of vanilla, benzoin, and other resins. And finally, ambroxan is just a chemical representation of the ambergris odor.

I was also under the impression that Dior Sauvage is mainly an ambergris (ambroxan) fragrance. It's what I smell for sure. And it's listed in the note pyramids almost everywhere. But I was just on the Dior site and saw this:



I see and hear people call ambergris and/or ambroxan "amber" all the time, but I thought they were completely unrelated.

 

[byrdjoel]

If you have the time an interest to read, I suggest you read this guide to amber on kafkaesqueblog.com. It was a lot more complex than I had appreciated. The tl;dr of it is that I think you're generally correct, except that ambergris is from whale feces and not vomit.

 

[Diddy]

Amber and ambroxan are unrelated. You are correct. Amber wood is some synthetic accord they've put together to give a woody impression of amber. (an actual perfumer can correct or even better detail my layman explanation.) Ambergris is 'naturally' created from whales giving up chunks of aromatic goodness. That's a very crude way of saying it, and it's far more scientific which can be observed by a simple Google search. Ambroxan is the synthetic form of ambergris.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambroxide

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambergris

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber

Ambergris (Grey amber) was confused in the middle ages with "amber" (yellow amber) because they were both found along shores. But "ambergris" originates with whales and floats whereas yellow amber doesn't. Yellow amber originates from tree sap.

There's far more detail than what I'm saying but you can start your historical journey with those links and go well beyond.

 

[dougczar]

People use them here to mean the same thing - but they aren't really the same thing.

I suppose everyone has their own opinions on it, but to me, ambergris smells like thick dust on the surface of a cup of coffee. Dry and a bit dusty. Amber is something more along the lines of caramel ice cream - creamier and more smooth.

It's a little of a mind trick I think - something like Parfum d'Empire Ambre Russe people keep mentioning as one of their favorite amber scents. But it is ambergris. Fragrantica often gets the note pyramid wrong.

Further confusion is that Grey Amber is another name for ambergris. But many here will just say that amber is not a "real" thing anyway, so I suppose we can call anything amber and it is fine.

 

[bpl12]

See I really thought they were completely unrelated, as much so as, say, Sandalwood and Lemon. My measuring stick for amber is always Versace Man, which has a distinct sweet, syrupy amber drydown. My measuring stick for ambroxan is always Sauvage or Erolfa, both of which have that milky, creamy, oceanic ambergris vibe. This shouldn't be so confusing. Isn't one a sap? Tree resin? And the other, whale vomit? Why does Sauvage have amboxan listed as a note but amberwood in the advertisement?

 

[thrilledchilled]

Ambra Aurea by Perfuman Roma I think is a very fine amber for reference.

 

[cacio]

I think you have it right overall. Except that as others have said ambroxan is not a substitute for real ambergris. Ambroxan is somewhat sharp and synthetic, and can easily pass as woods. So perfume houses can call ambroxan pretty much what they want, whether ambergris, amber, amber wood, wood, and what else.

As usual, the choice of note is dictated mostly by marketing. If at some point a house doesn't want to associate itself with animal product, they'll call it woods.

cacio

 

[bpl12]

I think you have it right overall. Except that as others have said ambroxan is not a substitute for real ambergris. Ambroxan is somewhat sharp and synthetic, and can easily pass as woods. So perfume houses can call ambroxan pretty much what they want, whether ambergris, amber, amber wood, wood, and what else.

As usual, the choice of note is dictated mostly by marketing. If at some point a house doesn't want to associate itself with animal product, they'll call it woods.

cacio

Ok, it's becoming more clear. Thanks

 

[thrilledchilled]

i wonder how many fragrances use amber from real vanilla as opposed to vanillin.

 

[chyprefresh]

Re: Can you DIY guys clear up ambergris vs. amber?

Ambergris is a blanket term for a laundry-esque or animalic/ oceanic amber aroma, there are also many different variations of real ambergris, but since it's prohibitively expensive many cheaper and effective alternatives were made. Many synthetics contain these traits such as ambroxan has the laundry aspect, some fecal resinoids contain more of the animalic characteristic, some others are warmer and richer or a combination of many traits (Fixateur 505E). There are also natural resins such as labdanum and fossilized amber that are sweet and church smoky like incense. There are also popular ambers such as cedramber which focus more on the dry wood aspect and the gamma isomers such as the rock-star Iso E Super that are silky and velvety woody ambers.. Amber wood could mean it's actually the aroma chemical Woodamber (Timberol), or it's an amber woody gamma isomer stated above, perhaps even one containing 18% of the IFF captive Iso Gamma Super in Sylvamber. I hope I helped you realize the breadth of your question and didn't create any more confusion.

 

[bpl12]

i wonder how many fragrances use amber from real vanilla as opposed to vanillin.

I doubt very many. Natural vanilla is extremely expensive.

 

[hednic]

If you have the time an interest to read, I suggest you read this guide to amber on kafkaesqueblog.com.

I remember having read that. Very informative.

 

[Oud Dude]

I think you have it right overall. Except that as others have said ambroxan is not a substitute for real ambergris. Ambroxan is somewhat sharp and synthetic, and can easily pass as woods. So perfume houses can call ambroxan pretty much what they want, whether ambergris, amber, amber wood, wood, and what else.

Haha! Marketing definitely adds to the confusion...

Ambroxan is a single synthetic material and a simulation of what Ambergris might smell like with the animalic aspect removed. To add it back in, some Ambrinol can get you close (smelled on it's own, Ambrinol smells to me sort of like bad breath).

I always think of Amber in perfumery as an accord- Vanillin, Benzoin, Labdanum, Ethyl Vaniline + maybe Bacdanol/Iso E Super and even Ambroxan + some musks seasoned to taste. Many ways to create an amber accord.

 

[Darjeeling]

To further confuse the issue, the term “woody Amber” seems to be applied to a range of synthetic woody chemicals, which to my nose smell more woody than ambery, but it’s arguable how much like wood they actually smell. I suspect this is the basis for that description, and I think ambrox is classified into the woody Amber category. There may well be other synthetic wood notes such as norlimbanol in Sauvage that belong to this category. It’s an extreme broad grouping as far as I can tell. I suspect connotations of resin/fossil Amber are much more appealing to modern consumers than whale excretions

TL;DR - it’s marketing BS.

 

[bpl12]

I suspect connotations of resin/fossil Amber are much more appealing to modern consumers than whale excretions

A deep blue poster, with a sun drenched bergamot, and an enormous piece of shit. Could work

 

[Diamondflame]

A deep blue poster, with a sun drenched bergamot, and an enormous piece of shit. Could work

LMAO.

“Raw freshness of spicy bergamot. Noble trail of whale excrement. ”

doesn’t quite have the same ring to it, does it? :wink:

Loving this thread btw. Great points, guys. ‘Marketing’ is such an interesting subject.

 

[IsleErrante]

Re: Can you DIY guys clear up ambergris vs. amber?

Ambergris is a blanket term for a laundry-esque or animalic/ oceanic amber aroma, there are also many different variations of real ambergris, but since it's prohibitively expensive many cheaper and effective alternatives were made. Many synthetics contain these traits such as ambroxan has the laundry aspect, some fecal resinoids contain more of the animalic characteristic, some others are warmer and richer or a combination of many traits (Fixateur 505E). There are also natural resins such as labdanum and fossilized amber that are sweet and church smoky like incense. There are also popular ambers such as cedramber which focus more on the dry wood aspect and the gamma isomers such as the rock-star Iso E Super that are silky and velvety woody ambers.. Amber wood could mean it's actually the aroma chemical Woodamber (Timberol), or it's an amber woody gamma isomer stated above, perhaps even one containing 18% of the IFF captive Iso Gamma Super in Sylvamber. I hope I helped you realize the breadth of your question and didn't create any more confusion.

Do you have an resources to learn more about these different materials?

I’ve recently found out I might have a migraine sensitivity to ambroxan and have been trying to learn more about all the different types of ambers and ambergris-like aroma chemicals like the ones you’ve mentioned. I wanna learn more about them so I can figure out which trigger my headaches!