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Beyond "Notes": how do you make sense of the other elements in a fragrance?

slpfrsly

Physician, heal thyself
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After a certain point, a lot of us come to terms with the fact that 'notes' - the written or visual list of ingredients or component smells within the fragrance - are insufficient for explaining a fragrance in its fullest sense. Whether it's reviewing a fragrance, or comparing one with another, just listing or mentioning a note (lemon, sandalwood, sea notes) is barely half the picture (or smell).

Now, in part you could say that notes aren't real - they're interpretations or abstractions, a way of putting something superficially 'real' back in to the equation to make them more comprehensible to the general public. Modern fragrances are built on fewer and fewer natural components - where once fragrance would have been solely derived from natural ingredients - and most people now seem accepting of the fact that their fragrance might not smell like anything recognisable to them from the material world. For enthusiasts, getting to grips with aromachemicals - the synthetic chemicals that make up the bulk of modern fragrances - leads a general identification or understanding of a few of them: ambroxan, dihydromercenol, norlimbanol, calone.

Perhaps it is my ignorance of the materials and process of making fragrances, but I find that trying to move beyond abstract 'notes' in to aromachemicals can be even less informative or useful than the alternative. Again, perhaps it is stating the obvious, but perfumery is about ingredients in combination with one another to produce a (hopefully) harmonious aroma - dissecting it for analysis can be useful, but referring to chemicals seems inferior to the abstract discussion of notes. Describing a fragrance as smelling like 'ambroxan' means nothing to the layman, but also can be confusing for the enthusiast as well.

And so, how do you talk about or understand the elements of a fragrance that cannot be covered by discussing the interpreted notes? There are crucial aspects within a fragrance that, to my mind, are vitally important (and therefore worthy of communicating), yet cannot be conveyed by discussing notes. An example of this would be a few fragrances I have tried relatively recently: Ted Lapidus's "Ted" and Clinique Happy for Men. There is something to these fragrances that simply convey "the 90s" to me in a way that I could not hope to explain through notes.

Generally speaking, I'd say I have a fondness for 90s masculine fragrances. While nostalgia may play a part in it, I also think there's something more fundamental to the fragrances from that time that are simply more pleasant and appealing to me than their modern equivalents. There is a property in a lot of them which I can, hopefully, express through notes or genres: there's a combination of the old and the new (perhaps the synthetic and the real) which helps them to retain a certain masculinity, a feel like you're smelling/wearing 'aftershave'/cologne. More modern scents - particularly the dark blues - don't have this quality. They don't feel like aftershaves, they're thicker, richer, more decadent. If I were to explain through notes, I would say there's something of the fougere or woody-spicy structure to a lot of them: green, woody, aromatic notes, combined with modern chemical-smelling notes that kicked off all sorts of weird and wonderful things (like the aquatic genre) during that decade. But that only gets you so far. What is that so many of these fragrances from that period (I could reel off dozens that share this certain aspect I'm thinking about, from Egoiste to Acqua di Gio) share? And if we can't describe it with notes, or aromachemicals, then should it just be left as something that isn't mentioned or categorised?

Perhaps this is purely a matter of material ignorance, and that breaking down the fragrances in to their component chemicals would illuminate much of the confusion. On top of that, there are all the other elements: the alcohol, the fixatives, and so on. People sometimes refer to houses or perfumers having a certain 'DNA' - is this just the aromachemicals? Is it just an aromatic property, or is there something beyond that, in the non-aromatic materials? I think I'm probing in to the darkness a little bit without any hope of finding the answers.



I wonder if anyone else has any thoughts about this? Have you considered the limitations of both 'notes' and aromachemicals when thinking about, discussing, or categorising fragrances? Do you recognise shared qualities between fragrances, but can't articulate what it is that's shared? How much do you think this matters?
 

cacio

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I agree with you that notes don't mean much most of the times, they are marketing anyway. I think that referring to genre is more informative, eg fougere, aquatic etc., as you do later in your post. And compare them to other perfumes. this is useful because perfumers use basic structures and models, so these typically give more information. So one can refer to the genre, and then specify what specific twist/note is prominent in the perfume.

Of course, these reference require that the other person knows the reference.
 

Scentologist

Well-known member
Apr 17, 2007
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Often times in the ER, a college boy presents that has partied too hard. He hit the cocaine and been drinking alcohol. Heart rate is 270 which is not a rate to sustain life, BP drops, and he becomes unconscious. Why? Cocaine when taken with alcohol forms cocaethylene and is very toxic and dangerous. I said this to say that combining notes and alcohol could alter the structure of one, or a few. The only real way to know is gas chromatography.

Having said this, I defer to my friend Hednic. The aforementioned is too much work and takes the fun out of it. I try to pick up on what notes are perceptible, prominent, and in what stage, but beyond that, just enjoy the fragrance!
 

imm0rtelle

New member
Apr 2, 2021
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Modern fragrances are built on fewer and fewer natural components - where once fragrance would have been solely derived from natural ingredients - and most people now seem accepting of the fact that their fragrance might not smell like anything recognisable to them from the material world.
I'm definitely not in the camp that demonizes synthetics. I'm actually a lot more skeptical of all natural fragrances, since they don't seem to have the finesse, polish, and elegance that fragrances that have synthetics may have. I love the modern airy style of perfumery. Jean-Claude Ellena is one perfumer that comes to mind who uses synthetics beautifully.

For enthusiasts, getting to grips with aromachemicals - the synthetic chemicals that make up the bulk of modern fragrances - leads a general identification or understanding of a few of them: ambroxan, dihydromercenol, norlimbanol, calone.
I don't trust enthusiasts who talk about aromachemicals unless they have smelled said aromachemicals in isolation, and not many have.

Perhaps it is my ignorance of the materials and process of making fragrances, but I find that trying to move beyond abstract 'notes' in to aromachemicals can be even less informative or useful than the alternative. Again, perhaps it is stating the obvious, but perfumery is about ingredients in combination with one another to produce a (hopefully) harmonious aroma - dissecting it for analysis can be useful, but referring to chemicals seems inferior to the abstract discussion of notes. Describing a fragrance as smelling like 'ambroxan' means nothing to the layman, but also can be confusing for the enthusiast as well.
I like talking about the "vibe" of the fragrance more than dissecting the notes. I like imagining the type of individual that it would match, their temperament, and their style.

People sometimes refer to houses or perfumers having a certain 'DNA' - is this just the aromachemicals? Is it just an aromatic property, or is there something beyond that, in the non-aromatic materials? I think I'm probing in to the darkness a little bit without any hope of finding the answers.
It is the overall "tone" of the fragrances, and shared facets, that come together as the brand's "DNA". It is like a film director with an identifiable style in their work.

Here is Chandler Burr and Hedi Slimane talking about the Celine Haute Parfumerie line having a certain "DNA":
1655225532553.png

I wonder if anyone else has any thoughts about this? Have you considered the limitations of both 'notes' and aromachemicals when thinking about, discussing, or categorising fragrances? Do you recognise shared qualities between fragrances, but can't articulate what it is that's shared? How much do you think this matters?
I think people feel uncomfortable talking about their feelings, and want to use more "objective" descriptors when they discuss fragrances.

I think that referring to genre is more informative, eg fougere, aquatic etc., as you do later in your post.
I think genre has limitations as not all fougeres really smell similar. It is such a broad category that it can often become meaningless.
 

Pippin06

always learning--often laughing
Feb 8, 2017
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Interesting topic. I don't care about the technical side beyond the notes listed to help me determine whether or not to purchase a fragrance, as I find myself especially liking particular notes such as various citrus; woods; leather and oakmoss, among others.
 

melograno

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Sep 1, 2021
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I pay attention to texture, as well: smooth, radiant, diffuse, etc.

I'm not such a pro that I can tie these directly to aromachemicals, but do record my impressions in case patterns emerge.
 

JBHoren

I'm a social vegan. I avoid meet.
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Apr 25, 2007
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First, TYVM! to the OP for an interesting topic; equally so, for the amount of time, thought, and personal energy he has clearly invested in presenting his own opinions and inviting those of others.

If I were thirty or forty years younger, I might purchase a "discovery set" of scents and work to develop a/my knowledge of them; but I'm not, so after I spend time with a fragrance's notes I [not] often [enough] Google those which are unfamiliar. More than that, I tend to rely heavily on BN members' reviews [as Billy Joel sang, it's "a matter of trust"]; here, if I read some that are especially favorable/insightful, I might also search BN for mentions of the fragrance in other contexts. With regard to ratings for sillage and longevity, I find them useful insofar as I dislike and avoid "sillage monsters", preferring close-in scents, and find that longevity greater than 5-6 hours is a detriment, since I enjoy wearing (comparing/contrasting) at least two fragrances during a day/evening/night. Finally, I appreciate knowing a fragrance's genre/category — it helps me to better evaluate fragrances when "comparing/contrasting" during a day's wear (apples to apples).

Bottom Line: If a fragrance "speaks to me", that's all I really need to know. As they say, "Why ask why?"
 

Pippin06

always learning--often laughing
Feb 8, 2017
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First, TYVM! to the OP for an interesting topic; equally so, for the amount of time, thought, and personal energy he has clearly invested in presenting his own opinions and inviting those of others.

If I were thirty or forty years younger, I might purchase a "discovery set" of scents and work to develop a/my knowledge of them; but I'm not, so after I spend time with a fragrance's notes I [not] often [enough] Google those which are unfamiliar. More than that, I tend to rely heavily on BN members' reviews [as Billy Joel sang, it's "a matter of trust"]; here, if I read some that are especially favorable/insightful, I might also search BN for mentions of the fragrance in other contexts. With regard to ratings for sillage and longevity, I find them useful insofar as I dislike and avoid "sillage monsters", preferring close-in scents, and find that longevity greater than 5-6 hours is a detriment, since I enjoy wearing (comparing/contrasting) at least two fragrances during a day/evening/night. Finally, I appreciate knowing a fragrance's genre/category — it helps me to better evaluate fragrances when "comparing/contrasting" during a day's wear (apples to apples).

Bottom Line: If a fragrance "speaks to me", that's all I really need to know. As they say, "Why ask why?"
Great post! 👍
 

relus

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Mar 21, 2019
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I like Pierre Dinand, the bottle desig er...i like the eraof designer houses, 60s to mid 90s.. the art, design, the tought behind it.. the trademark of big houses, ysl...lagerfeld, lancome, rochas, halston, cardin and such... when it was the scent but also much more...thats all gone and it will never come back.
 

JBHoren

I'm a social vegan. I avoid meet.
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Apr 25, 2007
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which are unfamiliar. More than that, I tend to rely heavily on BN members' reviews [as Billy Joel sang, it's "a matter of trust"]; here, if I read some that are especially favorable/insightful, I might also search BN for mentions of the fragrance in other contexts. With regard to ratings for sillage and longevity, I find them useful insofar as I dislike
In general, I read the SOTD, What Did You Buy/Try Today?, and What Wow'd You Lately? threads, on a daily basis -- our members share lots of valuable information, both objective and subjective.
 
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slpfrsly

Physician, heal thyself
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Interesting discussion so far. In essence, this is a thread about how difficult it is to express some sensory experiences, so not exactly the easiest thing in the world to talk about.
 

Foxsbiscuits

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Oct 8, 2003
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I think talking about notes in perfume is about as useful as talking about instruments in music. It doesn't help convey the song and ultimately that's what you listen to.
My favourite fragrances are indescribable at their core, usually abstract. I don't say "I love the lemon verbena that shifts to petitgrain and oakmoss." I say "God dam that smells magnificent" and am usually moved by it in some way.
Trying to describe perfume is hard, the more specific you get the less of the overall scent you convey yet when you try to convey the overall scent you quickly run out of words.
That's when we share context, memory, imagination, association, yet the degree to which these are used can make the description more/less relatable and understood.
Isn't that the beauty of it? We can't read a description or review and experience the smell, you just gotta sniff it!
 

dougczar

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Mar 3, 2012
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Great topic. On a side "note", I wonder why Fragrantica removed the note vote. A simple list of notes is minimally useful. It is hard to tell if it is the main note, or just a hint or a whisper in the whole composition. But a list of notes that people can individually vote on as strongly present or not very present can provide people with a much clearer picture of what the fragrance will smell like. I really wish they would not have removed that. It really made the site much less useful.

Regarding aromachemicals... I don't have a problem with their use - but I see a heavier and heavier reliance on them. Now it seems the art is gone and it is just fragrance-by-numbers. 20 new fragrances come out with just different ratios of the same 8 chemicals. And some of those chemicals are quite harsh and buzzy. I don't want to smell like I came from a lab or was involved in an industrial spill.

Most people need other people to give them an idea of what something smells like - they need the note listing in order to have a good idea of what they are smelling. I noticed very few people providing much insight about Puredistance Black on forums or in reviews when it first came out. This is because it was released without any notes or detailed description of the fragrance - people were left to smell it and decide for themselves. And I think they had a very hard time with it until others gave their opinions first... Those early reviews became the framework upon which some people would then describe the scent. Early reviews / descriptions of that one were few and far between. I think it shows the power of suggestion. Also, how some people think Bleu de Chanel is an acquatic or "Blue" fragrance. Sensory experiences are clearly influenced by mental thoughts of what they are expecting to smell or what they think they should be smelling.
 

Darjeeling

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Oct 29, 2012
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Apart from not really being that familiar with how many aromachemicals smell, there is a tendency for people to bandy around the handful of most well known ones and accuse them of whatever sins or whatever they feel the scent is committing.
The rotating villain used to be iso e super. Now it's ambroxan. It doesn't help that, not being natural, most of us have even fewer shared references of how these chemicals smell outside of perfumes, much less how they interact with other ingredients/notes, etc.

Even naturals can have interesting effects. I tried spraying Dior Homme Parfum on top of some santalum album essential oil thinking I'd get a woodier base and more sandalwood forward effect, but it just kind of changed the gourmand aspect from dark chocolate to milk chocolate, if that makes sense. So even something as familiar as a sandalwood not doesn't tell me much. I need other color and texture descriptors. Preferably from someone on here whose tastes are close to my own or who I have had enough references to match up how a scent smells and how they describe it.
 

cheapimitation

Well-known member
May 15, 2015
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I find another very useful category is textures, is the smell airy, rough, sharp, dense etc.

I know it's a common refrain from perfumistas/reviewers that notes lists aren't useful. But I'd actually say notes lists are underrated by connoisseurs, though perhaps overrated by perfume houses. While I can always be surprised by how the notes come together, they do convey a general feel for what the fragrance is about. I don't think I've ever felt massively fooled by the gulf between the notes listed and what I smelled. Usually it is just some disappointment that an amazing sounding combination of notes ended up being a mediocre perfume. I do think it depends on the perfumer and house as some are more literal than others. Jean-Claude Ellena is pretty straightforward and I find the notes of his perfumes are pretty accurate with what I experience, while Roja's note list contain just about everything in every perfume making it a lot less useful. Of course you can't literally convey the experience of any sensory phenomenon properly with language, but I think notes are at least a useful reference/starting point.

I do wish there were more genres to talk about in fragrance. Think about in music if I say "a punk song from the 80s" you might not know how it goes but you have a pretty good idea what it's going to sound like. Fragrance is massively lacking in well defined genres, but maybe more will be codified as time goes by.

I think as far as naming aroma chemicals, the desire to do this is because many of them no longer reference something in nature. We can say "tuberose" which may be an accord of several aroma chemicals which we don't need to pick apart to convey the fact that it smells tuberose-like. But things like ambroxan or calone have a very recognizable smell that isn't really trying to imitate anything in nature, so it makes sense to just refer to the chemical directly. I know it can lead to a lot of amateurs talking as if they really understand individual perfume ingredients, but for me when I smell that very recognizable soemthing in BR540, Sauvage, Another13 etc etc, I want to put a name to it so I research to find it's ambroxan.
 

L'Homme Blanc Individuel

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Jul 7, 2012
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Notes are not real. They're marketing.

So many people these days smell with their eyes. They read notes and convince themselves that's what they smell, which is bizarre considering how harsh some of the more recent aroma chemicals are.

The funny thing is, wine drinkers know notes aren't real, but for some reason, most perfume enthusiasts think they are. How bizarre. Wine drinkers know there aren't actually cherries or chocolate in their wine, but so many fragheads think notes are ingredients. It's silly.

I smell a scent and let my nose decide.
 

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