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Argon gas - aka "Winesave", or BHT for preserving ACs?

jameshillier

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Jul 15, 2020
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Is it OK to use BHT in my bottles of diluted ACs? If so, how much is a sensible amount?
Is argon a good option to preserve ACs?

I've been experiencing a problem with my diluted ACs where it seems that they've "gone off".

Some of them (not all) which I diluted a couple of years ago are now exhibiting a sharp or undesirable, "acetate" kind of smell. It may be the ethanol they are diluted in, because when the alcohol has evaporated, in some cases the odour of the individual aromachemical is present intact eg. Vertofix. Some have changed completely, and remain skanky in blends even after the alcohol has evaporated. One such example is ebanol.

This led me to seek solutions for my diluted materials, as it is annoying to re-dilute, and is a waste if they keep expiring (I'm guessing through oxidiation).

One question I wanted to bring to the forum is whether it is OK, or even beneficial to put a tiny amount of BHT crystal in each of my diluted bottles when I dilute it. Is this safe? OK? Will this solve my problem? If so, how much is required? Does anyone have any better ideas?

Another solution I have come across could be this Wine preserving argon gas bottle, which I suppose I'd use when putting my ACs away and not using them for a while - long-term, or using a little in the headspace of undiluted, particularly unstable ACs. Or just when I'm putting the lid on some ACs which I find may be prone to this kind of undesirable change over time.

Thanks for any ideas you may have.

Non-affiliated link to product an image below.
Apparently you can use it 115 times on wine, so I guess a lot more times on tiny AC bottles.
https://winesave.com.au/collections/winesave/products/winesave-pro

1653142386909.png
 

Stevenat

New member
Mar 25, 2022
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Dunno about your EtOH dilutions per se, but ebanol is well known to go off & get that funky smell.

ETA: Which I have recently observed myself, comparing a two year old bottle of ebanol to one just purchased.
 

greeneaj87

Active member
May 25, 2020
133
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From Perfumer's Apprentice's page on BHT:

Use Level: 0.05% or less in concentrated materials


I add it to just about everything. According to my math, 0.05% equates to about .0075g (7.5mg) of BHT per 15g of material. Which is about .075g (75mg, ~4 drops) of a 10% BHT solution. So I just add 4 drops of 10% BHT to my 15g bottles of materials. 8 drops to a 30g bottle, etc. If any of this looks off, please let me know!

For bottles with excessive headspace, I top them off with 75/25 argon/co2 welding gas.

And then refrigerate them.

And if it's amyl cinnamal or hexyl cinnamal, they go right in the freezer, after being diluted to 50% in Ethanol.

I'm kind of paranoid about my stuff going bad.
 

pavomi

Active member
Sep 3, 2016
515
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From Perfumer's Apprentice's page on BHT:




I add it to just about everything. According to my math, 0.05% equates to about .0075g (7.5mg) of BHT per 15g of material. Which is about .075g (75mg, ~4 drops) of a 10% BHT solution. So I just add 4 drops of 10% BHT to my 15g bottles of materials. 8 drops to a 30g bottle, etc. If any of this looks off, please let me know!

For bottles with excessive headspace, I top them off with 75/25 argon/co2 welding gas.

And then refrigerate them.

And if it's amyl cinnamal or hexyl cinnamal, they go right in the freezer, after being diluted to 50% in Ethanol.

I'm kind of paranoid about my stuff going bad.

be aware that most of the materials prone to oxidation are already stabilised with BHT or tocopherol (or other additives? don't know about that in details...) by the manufacturers.
 

jameshillier

Basenotes Plus
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Jul 15, 2020
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Thanks for the input everyone. I feel more confident that adding BHT is not the wrong way to go now. Any thoughts on the argon idea using a can like the one linked above? I would hope the gas release is a gentle outlet, not a violent one. I'll probably get one to test and report back.
 

greeneaj87

Active member
May 25, 2020
133
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be aware that most of the materials prone to oxidation are already stabilised with BHT or tocopherol (or other additives? don't know about that in details...) by the manufacturers.
Thank you for pointing this out. From now on I'll try to verify whether or not BHT has already been added to materials before I purchase them (if its possible).
 

Africa's pearl

New member
Jan 23, 2023
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From Perfumer's Apprentice's page on BHT:




I add it to just about everything. According to my math, 0.05% equates to about .0075g (7.5mg) of BHT per 15g of material. Which is about .075g (75mg, ~4 drops) of a 10% BHT solution. So I just add 4 drops of 10% BHT to my 15g bottles of materials. 8 drops to a 30g bottle, etc. If any of this looks off, please let me know!

For bottles with excessive headspace, I top them off with 75/25 argon/co2 welding gas.

And then refrigerate them.

And if it's amyl cinnamal or hexyl cinnamal, they go right in the freezer, after being diluted to 50% in Ethanol.

I'm kind of paranoid about my stuff going bad.
Hi there, I was wondering what is the reason for topping off your bottles with CO2 welding gas? Also, at what point in the process do you do this and how?
 

greeneaj87

Active member
May 25, 2020
133
53
Hi there, I was wondering what is the reason for topping off your bottles with CO2 welding gas? Also, at what point in the process do you do this and how?

Topping off bottles of aromamaterials with welding gas seems unnecessary. If you were sitting on several kilograms of rose absolute, maybe it would be worthwhile.

The hobbyist really shouldn't ever need welding gas to start perfumery.

I happened to have a bottle of argon/co2 laying around that I used for a few bottles that were getting very low (lots of headspace). The idea is, welding gas displaces oxygen, preventing oxidation.

BHT is probably even overkill to be honest.

Refrigerating/freezing certain materials seems pretty reasonable, though. I'm looking at you, amyl/hexyl cinnamaldehyde...
 

pkiler

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Dec 5, 2007
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Some materials such as pure benzaldehyde will benefit from lack of oxygen.
 

perfumer86

Active member
Feb 16, 2020
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u can put some bht to diluted materials or undiluted such as citrus oils. i dont know nothing about argon gas. its normal if some materials u had for years had gone off, specially citrus or fruity ac. they are not undestructable :) theres a product named Solgard which is a UV protector and preservative for fine fragrances, which looks promising. have not try it . u could check it out at fraterworks.com
 

RSG

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2016
910
268
The wine save is not a gentle gas release and the first time I used it, I sprayed almost my entire bottle of material all over my face, chest, desk, and everything.

Luckily it was not odiferous or expensive.

These days I have a tiny beaker with a replaceable stretchy rubber seal on the top. I fill it with gas, leaving a gap in the rubber seal so the oxygen comes out. When full, I then take out my spray and pinch the rubber seal. I then turn the bottle upside down over the neck of the material I am protecting and let the heavier gas flow in before capping.

If anyone knows a better way let me know lol
 

jameshillier

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Jul 15, 2020
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If starting with an empty bottle, You could do what they do in homebrew beer kegging (and presumably commercially too) which is to flush the entire keg with CO2 first, starting at the bottom, so the Oxygen is gradually risen out the top, replaced by the CO2 below.

In the case of our aromachem bottles, starting with a clean, empty glass bottle, you could poke the winesave tube down to the bottom and release for a few seconds, theoretically displacing any other air in the bottle. Then when adding the material, pipette it in, with the tip of the pipette at the bottom of the bottle so your material only needs to come into contact with argon.

Of course, this method does not apply when capping after using an already bottled material.

In theory, if you have a bottle of material that you use semi-regularly and it's only half full, pipetting out of it should not displace too much of your argon, so you might not need to re-argon each time.
 

pkiler

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Dec 5, 2007
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My argon gas tank has a 5psi regulator on it, and still, the first shot is much more psi. I always shoot across the bottle top first, then into the bottle when regulated to 5psi.
 

polysom

Active member
Apr 4, 2021
721
202
I definitely would avoid CO2 for replacing the oxygen. CO2 will react with any residue of water to form carbonic acid which would acidify the material. If the oxygen would need to be replaced, then some gas that is inert, like nitrogen or a nobel gas (a nobel gas which have a higher density then oxygen, of course) would be the better choice.
 

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