advice on creating a rich, creamy/caramelic vanilla

[texas28]

I've just created a vanilla based fragrance, however the vanilla has more of a dry/powdery type of smell as opposed to a more rich and decadent smell. Here's my current formula:

Bergamot = 0.05
Bitter Orange = 0.10
Cognac Accord 20% = 5
Tobacco Accord 20% = 3.75
Ethyl Vanillin = 3
Vanillin = 9
Vanilla Absolute 50% = 6
Ethyl Cinnamate = 0.25
Benzoin 50% = 4
Isobutavan = 0.5
Bicyclonolactone = 0.25
Heliotropex = 0.20
Coumarex DB = 3
Myrrh 20% = 0.5
Iso E Super = 1.5
Hedione HC = 2
Labdanum 50% = 1
Oakwood CO2 = 0.25
Ethylene Brassylate = 2
Galaxolide 50% = 0.5
BHT = 0.1
Oakmoss 20% = 0.25
Texas Cedar = 0.15

What advise would you give in creating a more rich and creamy vanilla smell? I kind of want to get somewhere akin to what Guerlain SDV is like and how the vanilla is in that fragrance. Obviously I don't expect to be anywhere near in terms of quality to that fragrance, considering it was created by a master perfumer and I'm a total novice but in that category if at all possible. I was thinking about increasing the isobutavan content or maybe even adding in a caramelic aroma chemical. I'm not looking for candy sweet, just a rich sweetness. Anyways, love to hear your suggestions.

 

[Greenslug]

Maybe a tiny bit of ethyl maltol? Or is that too cotton candy sweet?

 

[texas28]

Maybe a tiny bit of ethyl maltol? Or is that too cotton candy sweet?

I've actually never smelled ethyl maltol so I can't say for certain if it will work or not. The description on Perfumers Apprentice sounds about right for what I'm looking for. My only concern is the "strawberry-like" nuance as I certainly do not want to impart that type of smell into my formula. However, I might order some and start out with a tiny amount to see what it does. It's a very popular material in gourmands and I would imagine, one of the key ingredients to enhance sweetness.

 

[texas28]

So little update: I decided to go with maltol instead of ethyl maltol and it definitely helped add a little bit more sweetness to the blend. However, it was feeling a bit dense overall, so I've added more bergamot to help brighten it up a little more. Overall I'm pleased but I'm going to let it sit for about a week and see what I think.

 

[mnitabach]

So little update: I decided to go with maltol instead of ethyl maltol and it definitely helped add a little bit more sweetness to the blend. However, it was feeling a bit dense overall, so I've added more bergamot to help brighten it up a little more. Overall I'm pleased but I'm going to let it sit for about a week and see what I think.

I'm not sure about maltol, but in my blending experiments with ethyl maltol, a shockingly small dose has been sufficient to add a bit of sweetness. And even slightly higher doses have been sufficient to add "density" (as you put it) & even as one goes higher become opaque to desired notes. So it could be worth also testing effect of just decreasing maltol without changing anything else?

 

[skuharev]

Isobutavan, Bicyclonolactone, Heliotropex, Coumarex - it's good for creating creamy vanilla, but that's not enough for caramelic one.

For caramelic you should add
FURFURAL - use dilluted to 10%
SOTOLONE CARAMEL FURANONE dilluted to 1% - carefully, in large doses, it acquires some kind of bitter and unpleasant shade
OCTYL BUTIRATE NATURAL
Furaneol, or strawberry furanone - sweety.

nutty, woody, loud and retro-style is MAPLE LACTONE or CORYLONE by Ventos - very carefully. Up to 0.05% It's very specific.

Brown Sugar Base by SOS
DELTA DODECALACTONE by Bedoukian
DIACETYL NATURAL by Ventos

To make it rich if i get you right
try to add
DIHYDRO COUMARIN up to 4% but not too much
CHIRONIAX® SA 923330 (FIRMENICH)
Dark creamy white musk AURATOUCH

If talking about creamy wood notes - Ebanol and Polysantol.

For creamy i would add some
VANILLIN PG ACETAL №830 by BEDOKIAN
BUTYL BUTYRYL LACTATE by BEDOUKIAN - carefully and i'm not sure you will like it, but give it a try
KOUMALACTONE® 10% TEC 953327 by FIRMENICH
METHYL LAITONE 10% by GIVAUDAN

 

[texas28]

Isobutavan, Bicyclonolactone, Heliotropex, Coumarex - it's good for creating creamy vanilla, but that's not enough for caramelic one.

For caramelic you should add
FURFURAL - use dilluted to 10%
SOTOLONE CARAMEL FURANONE dilluted to 1% - carefully, in large doses, it acquires some kind of bitter and unpleasant shade
OCTYL BUTIRATE NATURAL
Furaneol, or strawberry furanone - sweety.

nutty, woody, loud and retro-style is MAPLE LACTONE or CORYLONE by Ventos - very carefully. Up to 0.05% It's very specific.

Brown Sugar Base by SOS
DELTA DODECALACTONE by Bedoukian
DIACETYL NATURAL by Ventos

To make it rich if i get you right
try to add
DIHYDRO COUMARIN up to 4% but not too much
CHIRONIAX® SA 923330 (FIRMENICH)
Dark creamy white musk AURATOUCH

If talking about creamy wood notes - Ebanol and Polysantol.

For creamy i would add some
VANILLIN PG ACETAL №830 by BEDOKIAN
BUTYL BUTYRYL LACTATE by BEDOUKIAN - carefully and i'm not sure you will like it, but give it a try
KOUMALACTONE® 10% TEC 953327 by FIRMENICH
METHYL LAITONE 10% by GIVAUDAN

Wow! Thanks for the suggestions! I've actually added in some sandalwood ACs and I might look into some of the more caramelic ACs you suggested as well as the auratouch musk since I don't think I have enough musk in the blend as it is. I've also already added in some ethyl cyclopentenolone @ 50% in my cognac accord and it has a bit of a caramelic quality to it.

 

[acidnbass]

I'd also explore traces of lactonic/butyric notes for creamy/buttery qualities.
Also, be careful with the coumarinic analogues—bicyclononalactone etc definitely pair well with vanilla accords, but they inherently boost the powdery qualities, sometimes lending a bit of a dry-herbal edge.

 

[acidnbass]

I'd also explore traces of lactonic/butyric notes for creamy/buttery qualities.
Also, be careful with the coumarinic analogues—bicyclononalactone etc definitely pair well with vanilla accords, but they inherently boost the powdery qualities, sometimes lending a bit of a dry-herbal edge.
And for caramellic qualities, you definitely should explore furfurals. 5-Methyl-Furfural being the most readily available.

 

[Logocracy]

SOTOLONE CARAMEL FURANONE dilluted to 1% - carefully, in large doses, it acquires some kind of bitter and unpleasant shade

Not wrong here. Sotolne will haunt your storage. Even at 0.1% it hounds you. It takes over everything! Be super careful with it or you'll smell nothing else!

 

[birdie]

Vanillin propylene glycol acetal doesn't have a strong scent on it's own but make a delightful creamy drydown in vanilla mixes. Small amounts of corylone is good for the candy part.

 

[anatyniak]

I think the source of the powder is coming from the heliotropex and coumarin materials. They can push vanilla more to the powdery side. Oakmoss added to the mix of vanilla heliotropine and coumarin can be kinda powdery too. The combo of Vanilla, Heliotropine, Coumarin, and Oakmoss we're in a lot of vintage powdery perfumes.

 

[mnitabach]

I think the source of the powder is coming from the heliotropex and coumarin materials. They can push vanilla more to the powdery side. Oakmoss added to the mix of vanilla heliotropine and coumarin can be kinda powdery too. The combo of Vanilla, Heliotropine, Coumarin, and Oakmoss we're in a lot of vintage powdery perfumes.

Yup, and with nitromusks!

 

[Godmu]

homofuronol for some caramel

 

[HisHighness]

Surprised you didn’t add ethyl maltol and coumarin that’s a standard basic caramel accord, it’s in huge doses in that Thiery Mugler scent…

 

[PoeticScent]

I've actually never smelled ethyl maltol so I can't say for certain if it will work or not. The description on Perfumers Apprentice sounds about right for what I'm looking for. My only concern is the "strawberry-like" nuance as I certainly do not want to impart that type of smell into my formula. However, I might order some and start out with a tiny amount to see what it does. It's a very popular material in gourmands and I would imagine, one of the key ingredients to enhance sweetness.

ok i have a noob question...i'm thinking of doing trying diy perfuming ...and a) thats a huge list of ingredience and b) when you say you'll test it out does that mean you combine all those material and throw it out if it's not good....is there a lot of waste in diy perfuming

 

[PoeticScent]

Isobutavan, Bicyclonolactone, Heliotropex, Coumarex - it's good for creating creamy vanilla, but that's not enough for caramelic one.

For caramelic you should add
FURFURAL - use dilluted to 10%
SOTOLONE CARAMEL FURANONE dilluted to 1% - carefully, in large doses, it acquires some kind of bitter and unpleasant shade
OCTYL BUTIRATE NATURAL
Furaneol, or strawberry furanone - sweety.

nutty, woody, loud and retro-style is MAPLE LACTONE or CORYLONE by Ventos - very carefully. Up to 0.05% It's very specific.

Brown Sugar Base by SOS
DELTA DODECALACTONE by Bedoukian
DIACETYL NATURAL by Ventos

To make it rich if i get you right
try to add
DIHYDRO COUMARIN up to 4% but not too much
CHIRONIAX® SA 923330 (FIRMENICH)
Dark creamy white musk AURATOUCH

If talking about creamy wood notes - Ebanol and Polysantol.

For creamy i would add some
VANILLIN PG ACETAL №830 by BEDOKIAN
BUTYL BUTYRYL LACTATE by BEDOUKIAN - carefully and i'm not sure you will like it, but give it a try
KOUMALACTONE® 10% TEC 953327 by FIRMENICH
METHYL LAITONE 10% by GIVAUDAN

would perfumers apprentice have all these? or is there one place that would have all these or would i have to buy at different locations...i ask because shipping with some of these places is insane...

 

[mnitabach]

ok i have a noob question...i'm thinking of doing trying diy perfuming ...and a) thats a huge list of ingredience and b) when you say you'll test it out does that mean you combine all those material and throw it out if it's not good....is there a lot of waste in diy perfuming

If you're interested in getting started with learning perfumery, IMO "rich creamy/caramelic vanilla" accord is not really a particularly useful place to start. It's a much more advanced perfumery problem that requires a lot of specialized materials.

You can do a ton of useful learning with maybe a few dozen materials, chosen based on a small number of reasonably chosen fragrance structures and/or accords for beginner learning purposes. And yes, if you want to learn perfumery, you need to assemble large numbers of trial formulas, test them on smelling strips and/or skin, and throw them out (99+ percent of them will not be useful as fragrances per se, but solely valuable as tests and learning). To save money on materials, there are workflows that let you assemble formulas in small volumes from materials pre-diluted in EtOH.

Start searching & browsing this forum, as there is a VAST trove of hugely valuable information here for beginners.

 

[pkiler]

ok i have a noob question...i'm thinking of doing trying diy perfuming ...and a) thats a huge list of ingredience and b) when you say you'll test it out does that mean you combine all those material and throw it out if it's not good....is there a lot of waste in diy perfuming

Hi, yes, learning Perfumery involves throwing out a lot of work for a few years.

Honestly, the formula given is not a huge list of raw materials.

 

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