Accords, ingredients and longevity - How they behave?

[Bruno_V]

Hi there!

I am new to perfumery, although I've read a lot and gathered information from several sources. However, I assume that I have a long way to go before I feel a perfumer myself.
I hope my questions aren't boring and can, somehow, help others. At least, hope they can trigger good discussion with you all.

So, my question is: If we use several materials in an accord and assuming that its materials have different longevity, how will the accord behave through evaporation in a finished perfume?
I'll use a simple green apple accord suggested by Jean Claude Elena as an example. He suggests these ingredients(longevity values between parenthesis) :

- Fructone (12 hours)
- Cis-3-Hexenol (4 hours)
- Benzyl Acetate (4 hours)

I don't know if it's a good example but it'll serve the porposes of the question. I mean, at the beggining, everything should smell like it should: a green apple. But, after 4 hours, the Fructone should have gone and, with it, the green apple note. We are left with cis-3-hexenol + benzyl acetate (which I assume doesn't smell like a green apple).

I may be missing something here, but I feel we cannot build an accord meant to shine as a heart note unless its ingredients have about the same longevity. And I am not even approach the interactivity between other accords and their ingredients, which intrigues me also.

Hope you can shed some light on this doubt I have.

Thanks in advance!

 

[PeeWee678]

After 4 hours the fructone is still there (contrary to what you stated above) but both Cis-3-Hexenol and Benzyl acetate are gone by then.

But it's more complicated: apart from the longevity, you will also have to take into account the evaporation curve of the materials with regards to how the accord changes over time.

Anyhow: in many cases accords are non-linear and indeed do change over time and in the above example it will probably fall apart after a few hours (on a blotter that is). In some cases an accord is just a fleeting moment in the development of the perfume. If you want an accord that shines in the heart for a long enough time, you will have to come up with just the right combination of materials with enough substantivity and, more or less, equal evaporation curves.

 

[Bruno_V]

After 4 hours the fructone is still there (contrary to what you stated above) but both Cis-3-Hexenol and Benzyl acetate are gone by then.

But it's more complicated: apart from the longevity there's also the evaporation curves of the materials you will have to take into account with regards to how an accord changes over time.

Anyhow: in many cases accords are non-linear and indeed do change over time and in the above example it will have fallen apart after a few hours. That's part of the development of a perfume over time.

Hi PeeWee678!

Thanks for your response! You're right, I messed up with the ingredient's longevity. Fructone will be "left alone" after cis-3-hexenol and benzyl acetate are gone.

Regarding your last sentence, I understand it. The thing is: if I want, let's say, a raspberry note to be present as an heart note I must only use materials that will be present after a few hours of evaporation, right? If I want some greeness from cis-3-hexenol it won't be there by that time.
Also, cis-3-hexenol will interact with other accords that won't need it.
I know that perfume is a complex matter, I'm just trying to get some hints on the way to approach my trials.

 

[PeeWee678]

If I want some greeness from cis-3-hexenol it won't be there by that time.

Yes, that is a problem you have to solve, for example by swapping that material for a more substantive green material with a similar scent profile. That's not always possible and that's something we have to live with I'm afraid. Consider it an opportunity to tap into your creativity and come up with an alternative, a smart workaround.

Indeed, it will also "interact" with other materials and that's where the complexity comes into play. You could be "lucky" if it goes along nicely with the other notes or not so lucky if you feel it clashes. You could try masking it with another material (to increase the complexity even further), leave it out or swap it for another green material that's more fitting, etc. etc.

I think you're asking a good and valid question but I don't think there's a clear-cut answer for it; no magical shortcut. For a large part it's a process of trial and error, especially for beginners.

 

[Bruno_V]

Honestly, I was already expecting that answers. I was just wondering if I was missing anything obvious (or not so obvious).



That kind of makes me wonder if I should approach perfume formulas in a different way. I mean building from base to top controlling the interactions step by step and as a hole beside thinking about it as a bunch of accords.



I don't know if that makes any sense.

 

[Italian pigeon musk]

Honestly, I was already expecting that answers. I was just wondering if I was missing anything obvious (or not so obvious).



That kind of makes me wonder if I should approach perfume formulas in a different way. I mean building from base to top controlling the interactions step by step and as a hole beside thinking about it as a bunch of accords.



I don't know if that makes any sense.

Just keep blending, you'll learn as you go, there's no right or wrong way to approach it.
I think there's going to be a hole in any approach if you base it purely on the knowledge of your materials.

There's an element of instinct that develops over time, that I personally have found to be more reliable than trying to compose something under a set of parameters.

 

[Bruno_V]

Just keep blending, you'll learn as you go, there's no right or wrong way to approach it.
I think there's going to be a hole in any approach if you base it purely on the knowledge of your materials.

There's an element of instinct that develops over time, that I personally have found to be more reliable than trying to compose something under a set of parameters.

Thanks for your advice, Italian pigeon musk

I see perfumery as a balance between art and science. I feel I need to master the science part to let the art part express freely upon it. That's why I'm trying to get some answers.
But yes, the instinct element must be an important part and that only comes with time and practice.

Also, I'm having trouble regarding odor strength. Is there any guide or chart from which I can get some help?

 

[PeeWee678]

Also, I'm having trouble regarding odor strength. Is there any guide or chart from which I can get some help?

• TGSC gives information regarding odor strength but only as low, medium, high so not that useful.
• Perfumer's World (search field halfway the page to the right) gives "relative odor impact" which they define as relative to linalool=100.
  They define ROI as the immediate impact upon smelling (a bit different from odor strength).
  Weaker than linalool is smaller than 100, stronger is higher.
• Best way is to build your own database by smelling yourself and entering the values in a database or Excelsheet.
  The comparison to linalool (medium strength) works well for me personally.

 

[Bruno_V]

• TGSC gives information regarding odor strength but only as low, medium, high so not that useful.
• Perfumer's World (search field halfway the page to the right) gives "relative odor impact" which they define as relative to linalool=100.
  They define ROI as the immediate impact upon smelling (a bit different from odor strength).
  Weaker than linalool is smaller than 100, stronger is higher.
• Best way is to build your own database by smelling yourself and entering the values in a database or Excelsheet.
  The comparison to linalool (medium strength) works well for me personally.

Thanks! I visited the page and, in fact, it seems to me more like immediate impact than odor strength.
My idea was to get some base to start making dilutions (yes, I'll do it from a cost-wise perspective).
I know that it will be my experiences that will matter by the end of the day. It's just a little push for the start.

 

[Italian pigeon musk]

Thanks! I visited the page and, in fact, it seems to me more like immediate impact than odor strength.
My idea was to get some base to start making dilutions (yes, I'll do it from a cost-wise perspective).
I know that it will be my experiences that will matter by the end of the day. It's just a little push for the start.

I took wish I was able to discover some cheat sheet with a definitive categorization for odor strength in order to dilute materials when I first started.

The best way I've come to figure out what I want at what percentage is to start blending everything neat / 100% and only dilute what is far too strong for working in the size of the trials I'm working with.

Tgsc is useful as well, it does say odor strength at low, medium, high, but many times also suggests "recommend smelling at x%" which combined with experimenting can help you figure out what you want to dilute that particular material To.

Also continue to read and analyze formulas, tgsc has many demo formulas , and you will see patterns of specific materials typically used only in very small doses.

 

[Bruno_V]

I took wish I was able to discover some cheat sheet with a definitive categorization for odor strength in order to dilute materials when I first started.

The best way I've come to figure out what I want at what percentage is to start blending everything neat / 100% and only dilute what is far too strong for working in the size of the trials I'm working with.

Tgsc is useful as well, it does say odor strength at low, medium, high, but many times also suggests "recommend smelling at x%" which combined with experimenting can help you figure out what you want to dilute that particular material To.

Also continue to read and analyze formulas, tgsc has many demo formulas , and you will see patterns of specific materials typically used only in very small doses.

Actually I found that tips useful for start making some dilutions.

I'm starting to know my materials (Woods and musks a little bit more difficult to identify correctly).
One funny thing: I know what happens commonly with Hedione. In my case, I can smell it for the first time but no more unless I wait some time. And then, again, only first smell will bring me that great note

 

[WindsweptDaze]

Honestly, I was already expecting that answers. I was just wondering if I was missing anything obvious (or not so obvious).



That kind of makes me wonder if I should approach perfume formulas in a different way. I mean building from base to top controlling the interactions step by step and as a hole beside thinking about it as a bunch of accords.



I don't know if that makes any sense.

If I knew nothing about the chemistry of scent (which I don't), I would be making some of the same assumptions you are; that ingredients with similar longevity would *theoretically* expire at the same time, and the base up approach to experiments would give you more control over the end product. I would be very interested to hear how your experimentation works out. Will it prove these hypothesis or not?

At this late stage in my life, I'm wishing I had known as a child that Perfumer was actually a career and that there were educational programs for aspiring perfumers.

 

[Bruno_V]

If I knew nothing about the chemistry of scent (which I don't), I would be making some of the same assumptions you are; that ingredients with similar longevity would *theoretically* expire at the same time, and the base up approach to experiments would give you more control over the end product. I would be very interested to hear how your experimentation works out. Will it prove these hypothesis or not?

At this late stage in my life, I'm wishing I had known as a child that Perfumer was actually a career and that there were educational programs for aspiring perfumers.

Thanks for your reply, WindsweptDaze!
I'm fact, this is just one part of the big question. The other one regards the interactions between materials. I mean, at the end of the formulation we will have dozens of materials interacting with each other. And things like longevity but also odor strength will have to be considered.
But, as I said before, this is art and science dancing together. If it was only science we would address this questions and mathematically control them. But the art part cannot (shouldn't) be controllable by these means. And that's why I think that experimentation, trial and error will slowly leading us somewhere.
But... I'm just taking my first steps. What do I know?

 

[TerriO]

Hi all! I am very new to the perfumers’ world so please be patient if I ask a question that seems uneducated because that would be correct. I’m considering using the Perfumer’s wizard to create formulas and wondered if anyone has had experience using it and if it’s beneficial? I’ll tell you the reason I’ve decided to to pursue this is because I created some formulas that I really liked with essential oils, but they didn’t hold up. I started doing some research that lead me here.

 

[jfrater]

In past times there were certain bases that were considered to be constant in their odour from start to finish - these got the name "invar" and the most famous were muguet invar and jasmin invar. Otherwise, bases like Mousse de Saxe or Fleur de Tabac have a top, heart and base which, in my opinion, contributes much to their beauty and function in fine fragrances.

 

[Bruno_V]

In past times there were certain bases that were considered to be constant in their odour from start to finish - these got the name "invar" and the most famous were muguet invar and jasmin invar. Otherwise, bases like Mousse de Saxe or Fleur de Tabac have a top, heart and base which, in my opinion, contributes much to their beauty and function in fine fragrances.

Hello, jfrater! Thanks for your reply.

I see your point. Part of the beauty and sofistication of a perfume or even an accord or base is the way it develops across time.
My question regards not just how an accord can be broken down through time (beautifully or not) but also how, in constructing a formula, one must be aware of the interaction of each component of, let's say, an accord, with other materials outside of the scope of that accord.
That leads me to question how I should approach the development of my formula.

 

[jfrater]

Hello, jfrater! Thanks for your reply.

I see your point. Part of the beauty and sofistication of a perfume or even an accord or base is the way it develops across time.
My question regards not just how an accord can be broken down through time (beautifully or not) but also how, in constructing a formula, one must be aware of the interaction of each component of, let's say, an accord, with other materials outside of the scope of that accord.
That leads me to question how I should approach the development of my formula.

By blending - that is the only way. Perfumer's who used Mousse de Saxe in the past had some notion of what was in it but not the formula and would be unaware of most of its content. But they used it by trying it out and learning how it interacted with the parts of the formula they did know. You approach these bases like units - just as you do rose absolute or any other natural - they too have life spans and a changing development and we don't need to know that jasmin has x% indole - we just need to know how it performs in the context of our formula.