8-Line Fully Synthetic Fougère

[mnitabach]

So in my continuing obsession with Fougère, I have been playing around with fully synthetic 8-line versions. My goal was to really refine in on the precise smell properties that make a fougère a fougère. In trying to understand how to effectively use boisiris, a single molecule with both woody & powdery floral properties, I found a formula on good scents from a patent that is labeled "fougère base" & includes a huge amount of boisiris & some not unexpected naturals (lavender, geranium, moss, basil). I tried to convert it to all synthetic & then played around some more to arrive at this:

boisiris 400
nopyl acetate 170
tetrahydrolinalool 200
aphermate 40
benzyl salicylate 105
amyl salicylate 55
coumarin 20
evernyl 10

This is to my nose very much a paradigmatic powdery fougère, with sweet fruity, citrus, herbal, floral top notes (aphermate, tetrahydrolinalool, nopyl acetate); long lasting mid notes of woody & floral & salicylic (boisiris, amyl salicylate); really strong long-lasting (still very strong & well-balanced at well over 12h on skin) nutty, sweet, spicy, balsamic, floral mossy base (benzyl salicylate, coumarin, evernyl).

In addition to focusing on the key olfactory qualities that make a fougère, this formula really demonstrates to me how cool boisiris is. Such an appealing multi-dimensional rich heart molecule, and amazingly transparent. I will be playing around with some other structures using boisiris as the framework.

Also, this formula really highlighted to me how central amyl salicylate is to the fougère structure, as in the absence of all of the complexity of the usual naturals, its key role becomes very apparent. I think by using no natural woodys or moss or florals (which are powerful in the mids not only base), this formula also highlights the tenacity of amyl salicylate on skin, which extends for a good number of hours. Incidentally, I used the Givaudan FCC amyl salicylate (bought from PA) which is apparently actually a 2:1 mix of amyl:isoamyl salicylates. This stuff is absolutely gorgeous, tbh, compared to other amyl salicylates I have on hand.

An alternative version I've tested that uses much more common molecules but still reveals the structure is this:

boisiris 400
linalyl acetate 200
linalool 170
geraniol 20
benzyl salicylate 100
amyl salicylate 50
coumarin 20
evernyl 10

This one lacks the complexity & vigor & unusualness in the top as compared to the first one (aphermate is really interesting, and tetrahydrolinalool smells more citrusy than linalool), but the mid & base is identical. Altho I haven't tried, if one wanted to get this down to totally bog-standard materials, the boisiris could presumably be replaced by a suitable (grojsman-like?) ratio of iso e super, hedione or transparent muguet, alpha ionone, to recreate its transparent woody, floral, powdery facets (altho this wld possibly be somewhat more tenacious than boisiris).

 

[Casper_grassy]

Have you tried replacing the amyl salicylate with cis-3- hexenyl salicylate? I find the C3HS to be much smoother and nicer and IMO works better in any case amyl salicylate is used. I also find the use of boisiris to be interesting, i’m wondering how it works with the first formula posted. It isn’t something i’d reach for in a fougere but I can see how it’d work.
It does also seem to me to be a lot of aphermate, but i’ll take your noses word on this.

 

[mnitabach]

Cis 3 hexenyl salicylate sub for amyl is a very interesting idea to try.

Boisiris is woody floral powdery, so seems like a natural fit for fougère?

 

[Casper_grassy]

Cis 3 hexenyl salicylate sub for amyl is a very interesting idea to try.

Boisiris is woody floral powdery, so seems like a natural fit for fougère?

I have boisiris, it just has an IES ionone vibe that’s why I find it interesting

 

[mnitabach]

It blends pretty differently from IES & ionones to my nose. I find it more interesting, probably mostly because it's not ubiquitous...

 

[mnitabach]

Have you tried replacing the amyl salicylate with cis-3- hexenyl salicylate? I find the C3HS to be much smoother and nicer and IMO works better in any case amyl salicylate is used. I also find the use of boisiris to be interesting, i’m wondering how it works with the first formula posted. It isn’t something i’d reach for in a fougere but I can see how it’d work.
It does also seem to me to be a lot of aphermate, but i’ll take your noses word on this.

OK, I just tried the first version above, but subbing cis-3 hexenyl for amyl/isoamyl salicylate. It's very interestingly different! Here are my thoughts on the top phase:

(1) C3H is substantially more transparent than amyl/isoamyl, and the top is more diffusive & invigorating with the former.

(2) Top is dryer, less sweet with C3H than amyl/isoamyl.

(3) Top is greener, fresher, more herbal. I think part of this is that in the amyl/isoamyl version, the aphermate is not as prominent; with C3H, the aphermate is more in the front.

(4) Top is still really nice smelling, but it doesn't smell recognizably "fougère" anymore. It's just not that recognizable fougère accord anymore.

(5) Now instead of an old-school fougère, the vibe is much more a modern "freshie".

 

[Bill Roberts]

Wow, quite a bit of personal difference in perception there. To me amyl and isoamyl are far heavier herbal than I would wish, while the cis-3 is scarcely herbal to me!

 

[mnitabach]

Wow, quite a bit of personal difference in perception there. To me amyl and isoamyl are far heavier herbal than I would wish, while the cis-3 is scarcely herbal to me!

Well, I think a substantial part of these differences in perceiving the blends is due not only to the intrinsic scents of C3H vs amyl/isoamyl, but also that C3H is much more transparent (at the same dose as amyl/isoamyl) to the aphermate, tetrahydrolinalool, and nopyl acetate.

 

[Bill Roberts]

Makes sense.

 

[mnitabach]

Once the top notes are all gone, the differences between C3H & amyl/isoamyl versions are less. The C3H version is more transparent also to the boisiris woody powdery floral heart note. This is perhaps more elegant & subtle than the amyl/isoamyl version, where the prominent note is the sweet salicylate itself. It's definitely, as expected since C3H is at same dose not as strong a scent as amyl/isoamyl, more subdued overall in the heart. Seems like it could be interesting to test different ratios combining C3H & amyl/isoamyl!

 

[polysom]

If you buy something from De Hekserij, you always get a formulation for Fougère (as an advertisement for a 26 DIY Perfume Formula book). I did not made that so far, mainly because it was unclear to me what "Fougère" actually is and if I would like the smell (and I don't have Lavandin Abrialis).
There formula is:

4 Lavandin Abrialis EO
4 Bergamot FCF EO
4 Citronellol
3 Cedarwood Virginia EO
4 Coumarin 10%
1 Patchouli EO

 

[mnitabach]

OK here is a very interesting observation about cis-3 hexenyl salicylate versus amyl/isoamyl salicylate versions: At 3-4 hours on skin, the amyl/isoamyl version has transitioned to a very strong vibrant benzyl sal/coumarin/evernyl drydown. In contrast, the C3H version is very quiet, with mostly just a very faint salicylic scent. This seemed very weird to me in light of the greater transparency of the C3H versus amyl/isoamyl to the top and mid notes.

But I took a look at my notes from earlier this year doing side-by-side substantivity tests of all the salicylates I could get my hands on. Lo and behold, at the same concentration of 3% in EtOH, amyl & isoamyl are no longer detectable by 72 hours, while C3H is detectable thru 144 hours. Given that amyl/isoamyl are definitely stronger smelling than C3H, this indicates that C3H sticks around a good bit longer (maybe three times?) than amyl/isoamyl. Being around a lot longer than the amyl/isoamyl, while relatively faint itself, this is apparently enough for C3H to be relatively opaque to the base materials of this formula.

And I guess the broader lesson from this is that opacity/transparency is always relative, and something that is transparent to certain scents can be opaque to others.

 

[Bill Roberts]

Yes, I treat cis-3-hexenyl salicyate as part of my base notes and dose it to blend with them rather than the opening or anything else.

While I have not done this (I don't know why, just lack of ever thinking of it before I guess) maybe it could make sense in trying combining the Z-3-hexenyl and the amyl/isoamyl to dose the hexenyl for best blending with your basenotes by the time its down to them, and then amyl/isoamyl to provide whatever more is needed during the earlier phases?

 

[mnitabach]

Yes, I treat cis-3-hexenyl salicyate as part of my base notes and dose it to blend with them rather than the opening or anything else.

The beautiful benzyl sal/coumarin/evernyl base is finally starting to reveal itself at about 5 hours after application to skin... This gives even greater credence to the notion of using an appropriately chosen ratio of C3H:amyl/isoamyl in this kind of formula.

 

[Big L]

Greate thread, thank you, Mike. The fougère theme is so well established that we could probably go as low as 4 ingredients and still create something recognizable as Fougère (even if it won't be very interesting).

Perhaps Something like:

Linalyl acetate	475
Amyl Salicylate	335
Coumarin	150
Evernyl	40

One can then decide to make that 25%, 50%, or even 60% of the formula and go on adding more materials.

I wonder if we can find a 4, or 8 line formula without any of these that we could still title fougère. The coumarin is probably the hardest one to replace, thinking back to the history of this style. Something like Bicyclononalactone feels a bit like cheating but still interesting.

I tried for example the following one that came out futuristic fougère like:

alpha-Terpinyl Acetate	575
cis-3-Hexenyl Salicyate	170
Bicyclononalactone	140
Terranol	115

An alternative accord, substituting Lindenol (alpha-Terpeneol) for the alpha-Terpinyl Acetate was also very nice.

 

[Casper_grassy]

I think when I get home i’m going to do an 8 liner and make bases for each line and see what I get. Trying to get crazy over here.

 

[Big L]

 

[mnitabach]

I guess I'll put this observation here for ppl who search the forums for "boisiris", but it looks like boisiris + pyralone (IBQ) forms a very interesting accord. I'm not quite ready to report details yet, but I think it's pretty cool!

 

[mnitabach]

Greate thread, thank you, Mike. The fougère theme is so well established that we could probably go as low as 4 ingredients and still create something recognizable as Fougère (even if it won't be very interesting).

Perhaps Something like:

Linalyl acetate	475
Amyl Salicylate	335
Coumarin	150
Evernyl	40

One can then decide to make that 25%, 50%, or even 60% of the formula and go on adding more materials.

I wonder if we can find a 4, or 8 line formula without any of these that we could still title fougère. The coumarin is probably the hardest one to replace, thinking back to the history of this style. Something like Bicyclononalactone feels a bit like cheating but still interesting.

I tried for example the following one that came out futuristic fougère like:

alpha-Terpinyl Acetate	575
cis-3-Hexenyl Salicyate	170
Bicyclononalactone	140
Terranol	115

An alternative accord, substituting Lindenol (alpha-Terpeneol) for the alpha-Terpinyl Acetate was also very nice.

Great insights! Today I'm gonna try the following:

sclareolate 580
salicynile 180
coumarone 140
orcinyl 100

 

[Casper_grassy]

Great insights! Today I'm gonna try the following:

sclareolate 580
salicynile 180
coumarone 140
orcinyl 100

Where did you get the coumarone?